Laudani + Zappalá (was Wrong Names, Places + Surnames)

[Essgee]

Yes, that is what it says....how it translated to Victoria, I am not sure.

This whole thing needs to go back to square one...will every piece of info ....

There is more then one Carmelo Laudani or variation in Lawerence. One about 44 in 1910, another a son of a Francesco Laudani who is 18 in 1910...I am thinking there is no marriage record....something doesn't sit right about all of this.....

What about birth records for the children? This is the first documented proof that these are the correct parents, with the address they were at at the time......I got my grandmother's and great grandmother's info from the town hall in Massachusetts with no problems...seem like getting a birth record would be the most simple....and then there is such a gap between the birth of the first child and the second.......also not sure why........

Got to head to bed.........will attack later in the a.m. .......maybe someone will find something else by then........

[mfjp]

Essgee... if your wondering where my post went... I deleted it... and then you replied..

Seeing that you answered my question I thought I would let you know where the post went...

It originally asked to read the child's name on the 1910 census record... I read it as Venera.

John_Dominic... is the name Veronica or Victoria??

It was a good thing that you posted...

mfjp

[john_dominic]

I believe the passenger record he has from the Boston arrivals is indeed his GGgrandmother.

But, with the other passenger arrival at Ellis Island of Concetta Zappala married to Alfio Laudani, it proves that the birth record he has is NOT FOR HIS GGGRANDMOTHER...but for this woman here, who has the same name as his gggrandmother.

At this point, it is the only thing that is provable....two manifests, two different women, the second being after her marriage to Alfio and so NOT THE BRIDE OF CARMELO....

Back to the drawing board. I would suggest going through the town records by microfilm at the FHL. In this case, you can probably find the correct listing.....As you can see, he has an EXTRACTED record...I would rather see it up close and personal...and it could lead to more clues.....

I have been checking...and this is not easy.

I would agree on this, at this point.

However, i'm leaning towards MY "Concetta" to likely be a "Maria Concetta" over another Concetta Zappala at this point.

Now, in terms of the LDS, I must repeat to you my situation:

A. I do not work professionally on this. This is all on my free time, which doesn't interfere with my 60 hour work weeks.

B. I consistantly work until 5pm, usually up until 6pm or longer

C. My local history center has absolutely terrible hours and one cannot even get microfilm:

Chicago Illinois
3250 South Pulaski Road
Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, United States
Phone: 773-890-9285
Hours: T 6pm-9pm; W 4:30-7:30pm; Th 6pm-9pm(Spanish); Sat 10am-4pm
Closed: Holidays and Conference weekends (1st and 2nd weekends of October)
Attention: Does not have film circulation - Cannot order microfilm. No answering machine - contact IL_Chicago@ldsmail.net


Hyde Park Illinois
5200 S University Avenue
Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, United States
Phone: 773-493-1830
Hours: Wed 6pm-9pm; Sat 9am-12pm
Closed: Holidays, and the 1st weekends of April and October.

I hope you understand how it does not seem like a feasable option for me to do ANY lengthy research at. With 6 hours a week (tops) at my disposal, it will take years to do what you guys can do in one or two weeks.

Not to mention, I know little Latin or Italian at all.

If it's not easy for you, it's going to be downright impossible for me.

Unless you've got another option for me - I'm probably going to request an extracted record for Maria (Concetta) Zappala from Trecastagni as well as Pedara, while i'm still trying to get records for the birth of Carmelo Laudani from Pedara and Trecastagni.

[john_dominic]

just an thought. John Dominic in first time you say:

-Carmelo LAUDANI from Caccamo... Caccamo is Palermo province... now from Pedara.. Pedara is in Catania province.. as you think that was Caccamo initially... you have some family memory about this...?

-Concetta: Trecastagni always in Catania province... but no result as you say.... why you say in first time TRECASTAGNI...?

About your search I can say.. that for to understand the right trace you must start from 1910 census: in this document Carmelo is sure YOUR Carmelo ( and no Alfio or other).. and Concetta is YOUR Concetta ! and, because it is of 1910 year, is very possible that the year of immigration listed is right, (because normally on the census, the error probabilities it increases with passing of the time)and about Carmelo seems 190...(1905?)wrote but sure married from 4 years... and Concetta immigration year seems 1904 frankly.... so married in USA... 2 years after the immigration if 1904 is right year..

-NOW: the search must to re start
-from right first name: Carmelo and Concetta, from year immigration and to try the just records and no similar.. ...
just an suggestion... regards, suanj

I've already requested the extracted record to be reviewed twice at Caccamo to see if Carmelo or any Laudani from that time was born there. Both times they came up with nothing.

The story behind it was that my Grandmother's father and grandfather "used to talk a ton to each other since they were from the same town." This could have easily been a misconception, since her parents divorced when she was very young and her father lived all the way up in Milwaukee, and they probably didn't get together THAT often.

Now, the passenger manifest with the "Vendano" which could have been easily a poorly written down version of "Pedara" who the next person in line in the manifest is from, makes complete sense to me.

As for the 1910 Document, it adds up since Veronica (not Victoria), my great grandmother is in there, as well as her mother and father, with the dates and cities matching perfectly. I highly doubt there is another family of Carmelo and Concetta Laudani with daughter Veronica in Lawrence, MA in 1910. Additionally, remember, they would have to still be there in 1910 if her sister was born in 1912 (barring unlikely conditions).

Which specific records / cities do you suggest?

[john_dominic]

Yes, that is what it says....how it translated to Victoria, I am not sure.

This whole thing needs to go back to square one...will every piece of info ....

There is more then one Carmelo Laudani or variation in Lawerence. One about 44 in 1910, another a son of a Francesco Laudani who is 18 in 1910...I am thinking there is no marriage record....something doesn't sit right about all of this.....

What about birth records for the children? This is the first documented proof that these are the correct parents, with the address they were at at the time......I got my grandmother's and great grandmother's info from the town hall in Massachusetts with no problems...seem like getting a birth record would be the most simple....and then there is such a gap between the birth of the first child and the second.......also not sure why........

Got to head to bed.........will attack later in the a.m. .......maybe someone will find something else by then........

This other Carmelo Laudani was likely not him. Both are too old or too young. They could be related. Family moved where other family was. But, I doubt there's anything that odd about what you see there.

And, I do suppose getting Veronica's birth certificate might be easiest, although it most of them at the time did not have parental birth city filled out, so it could be a complete waste.

We'll see...

[john_dominic]

BTW, it just dawned on me that these families may have known each other back in Pedara / Trecastagni.

This looks like criss-crossed families. A "criss-crossed family" by my definition is where two families are fairly close, interacting with each other a lot and as a result you have two (or more) marriages between them. The end result is the closest relationship to being siblings any cousins can do.

This happened at least once on another branch of my family.

Is it fair to hedge a bet that Concetta Zappala (the bad birth record) married Alfio Laudani in Pedara / Trecastagni and the families were close to each other? So, when Maria Concetta Zappala came to America, she obviously met up with her connections here, and one of them was Carmelo Laudani, who she married?

[suanj]

Hi John: as is possible that in
-1910 census that you provide us are: Carmelo age 24 so born around 1885/6 imm. year 190...(1904 or 1907?);Concetta age 23 so born 1886/7..... imm. year semm 1904 or 1907 also...;

-1920 census: Carmelo age 34 so born in 1885/6 and imm. in 1904;and Concetta age 25 so born in 1895 and imm in 1915!!!

-1930 census: Carmelo age 45 so born ion 1885/6 and year of imm. 1908; Concetta age 36 born around 1894 and imm in 1916!!

Where is the truth and where is the error?

WELL: about the Concetta Zappalà born around 1886 from Pedara.. are this ship's manifest that joining Alfio Laudani husband in Lawrence http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 2265060436

and perhaps, always an my opinion, THIS IS NOT your Concetta, but the person that you have the birthact from Pedara..
in fact in 1920 are Alfio:
Name: Alfia Laudan
[Alfia Landan]
Age: 37 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Birthplace: Italy
Race: White
Home in 1920: Lawrence Ward 2, Essex, Massachusetts
Home owned: Rent
Sex: Male
Marital status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Year of immigration: 1905
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Image: 1073

and Concetta wife

Name: Concetta Laudan
Age: 32 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Birthplace: Italy
Race: White
Home in 1920: Lawrence Ward 2, Essex, Massachusetts
Sex: Female
Marital status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Year of immigration: 1906
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Father's Birth Place: Italy


I wish to analyze better you search and I hope to find more...
regards, suanj

[suanj]

also you say that the daughter is Veronica named.. as mfjp say, really on 1910 census are wrote VENERA... and perhaps changed in Veronica some time after... well Saint VENERA is an sicilian saint of some particular area... and so Venera first name is most diffused especially in Catania area because are most devotion for this Saint... as in Acireale town, in Santa Venerina town .... more: sure I found many Laudani married to many Zappalà and viceversa... ..suanj

[john_dominic]

Hi John: as is possible that in
-1910 census that you provide us are: Carmelo age 24 so born around 1885/6 imm. year 190...(1904 or 1907?);Concetta age 23 so born 1886/7..... imm. year semm 1904 or 1907 also...;

-1920 census: Carmelo age 34 so born in 1885/6 and imm. in 1904;and Concetta age 25 so born in 1895 and imm in 1915!!!

-1930 census: Carmelo age 45 so born ion 1885/6 and year of imm. 1908; Concetta age 36 born around 1894 and imm in 1916!!

Where is the truth and where is the error?

WELL: about the Concetta Zappalà born around 1886 from Pedara.. are this ship's manifest that joining Alfio Laudani husband in Lawrence http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 2265060436

and perhaps, always an my opinion, THIS IS NOT your Concetta, but the person that you have the birthact from Pedara..
in fact in 1920 are Alfio:
Name: Alfia Laudan
[Alfia Landan]
Age: 37 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Birthplace: Italy
Race: White
Home in 1920: Lawrence Ward 2, Essex, Massachusetts
Home owned: Rent
Sex: Male
Marital status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Year of immigration: 1905
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Image: 1073

and Concetta wife

Name: Concetta Laudan
Age: 32 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Birthplace: Italy
Race: White
Home in 1920: Lawrence Ward 2, Essex, Massachusetts
Sex: Female
Marital status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Year of immigration: 1906
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Father's Birth Place: Italy


I wish to analyze better you search and I hope to find more...
regards, suanj

As I said, Carmelo left my great great grandmother and married another woman named Concetta/Concettina. They lived together in Milwaukee. This is a fact and I knew it well before I did any research.

Additionally, Alfio's wife ALSO was named Concetta.

There is no error there. It's simply confusing since Carmelo's second wife had pretty much the same first name as his first wife (my Concetta) and Alfio's wife (the bad birth record) had the same first name as all three of them.

In other words, it seems that all three women were named Concetta / Concettina Laudani at one time in their lives, with at least two of them having the maiden name of "Concetta Zappalá"!! 8O

[john_dominic]

also you say that the daughter is Veronica named.. as mfjp say, really on 1910 census are wrote VENERA... and perhaps changed in Veronica some time after... well Saint VENERA is an sicilian saint of some particular area... and so Venera first name is most diffused especially in Catania area because are most devotion for this Saint... as in Acireale town, in Santa Venerina town .... more: sure I found many Laudani married to many Zappalà and viceversa... ..suanj

Interesting, but I do want to add to everything that Veronica was an exceptionally popular name at the time she was born. Just do a Census search in Lawrence, MA for people born in 1907 with the name Veronica in the 1910 US Federal Census. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of girls who were named Veronica.

However, I will not dismiss this as a possibility, since i've not yet seen her birth certificate, either, and we all know how Italians in the US around the turn of the century LOVED to "Americanize" their names, changing things like "Pietro" to "Pete" and "Vincenzo" to "Vincent" or, say, "Venera" to "Veronica."

[suanj]

Ok about the two Concetta/tina wifes.. suanj.....

[mfjp]

A. I do not work professionally on this. This is all on my free time, which doesn't interfere with my 60 hour work weeks.

B. I consistantly work until 5pm, usually up until 6pm or longer

C. My local history center has absolutely terrible hours and one cannot even get microfilm:

Some regular book libraries do carry LDS film if that helps any. A phone call to the main library wouldn't hurt just to find out which library has microfilm readers and which one has access to LDS film.

Sorry they sent you the wrong Concetta. We've seen this happen to others as well...

suanj, thanks for the Venera given name verification, in my town "Veneranda" seemed to be common too. Wasn't sure what I was reading on the census record.

This info would be helpful especially with naming traditions... Carmelo's mother may have been a Venera... something to compare to in the future.

Me personally... it is somewhat frightening to see sooo much info go up in just one weekend... and just so fast on one post. I think this forum has a great team. We feed off eachothers information and that's why we can figure out things in just hours, days.... People have written before saying "I've researched this on my own for 2 years... you guy's figured it out in just days..."

Many of the people who help out at this forum have invested many hours, days, years, all personal time, and money for subscriptions... (Ancestry.com) to help others out... becoming a good researcher didn't happen overnight either. In my opinion.... I would rather spend 3 hours+ a day on this forum instead of watching TV. Family research is really exciting and I can see better movies made out of these real life "stories"....

It is at times overwhelming to review everyone's opinion and research to follow everything through. At times it does help to step back, review, ask again... and sometimes start over again.

I know we have to drop this Alfio guy... and obviously more than one out there. I do take notes when I research... and I do know that an Alfio Zappala also had 2 sons, a Domenico and a Rosario... who also went to Laurence, Mass.

Hopefully other Laudani - Zappala researchers will find this post and find all this helpful and maybe amusing.

One last thing, finally...

The script "Z" looks like an "F" but with a dash running through the middle... there are a number of "FAPPALA" mis-transcribed manifests out there....

Here is an example... see lines 8 + 9...

http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 4120020069
Check them out...

mfjp

[john_dominic]

Ok about the two Concetta/tina wifes.. suanj.....

One thing to add:

Remember that according to the passenger manifest, my Concetta is listed as "M Concetta Zappala", so it's quite possible she was born Maria Concetta Zappala or Maddelena Concetta Zappala, etc.

I consider that highly more probable than two women being born as "Concetta Zappala" who married a Laudani.

Would you say it's a good idea to get research done on a "M Zappala" being born around 1887, also, in both Pedara and Trecastagni?

Additionally, it was asked earlier why they had so few children, and I believe I have the answer in my earlier link to the Lawrence Textile Strike of 1912:

"Conditions had grown even worse for workers in the decade before the strike, with the introduction of the two-loom system in the woolen mills leading to a speedup in the pace of work, which led in turn to layoffs and lower wages for workers. Those who did work earned on the average less than $9.00 a week for a full week's work.

The workers lived in crowded and dangerous apartment buildings, often with many families sharing each apartment. Many families survived on bread, molasses, and beans; as one worker testified before the March 1912 congressional investigation of the Lawrence strike, "When we eat meat it seems like a holiday, especially for the children". The mortality rate for children was fifty percent by age six; thirty-six out of every 100 men and women who worked in the mill died by the time they reached twenty-five."

The conditions were absolutely terrible in Lawrence, MA when they moved there, and it would be completely fair to presume she had a number of children who died very young.

[suanj]

after this search job, I think that it is better to search Maria Concetta record, as also Matteo brother and all siblings that you can find, included the sister that was married to Domenico DOGA (?) in Lawrence,( perhaps was married before in Pedara) ...
Rosa no was an sister perhaps cousin..
after that you find you can know more, but, always, for confirmation, is necessary to find marriage record ........ suanj

[Essgee]

OK............

1. There are seven FHL centers in Cook County, but do understand the problem. However, this is one where attention to detail is important.

2. Almost every women in Italy bore the name Maria, and in a lot of instances, it was followed by another name. Your GGGrandmother could well have been Maria Concetta...but so could the others. Don't get hung up on and trying to use "uniqueness" of name to define who she is. You have been doing that and it has resulted in a false path.

3. When you spoke of the name Veronica being so prevelant in Lawerence, you stumbled upon a clue to your backgroud. People from the same part of Italy tended to settle in the same areas in the new country. It provided people to sponsor them, but more so, extended family that made this foreign place a bit like home. When I was looking at the Lawerende records yesterday the name Alfio was in what appeared every household on every street...it was amazing. I had only seen the name once or twice before and here it was in every family. So yes, these people were from the same part of the world.

4. FACT and Fiction. You cannot use fiction to justify fact. Every story told to you must be treated like a nice story, but not as fact until you can verify it. It may have clues to lead you in the right direction, it might be all absolutely and catagorically true...but until you have the documents to support it, it isn't FACT. So you must go back to square one and fill in the blanks until you reach the place where you need to find documentation. Then you look for that in an attempt to find out the truth.

5. Start with the birth of your Grandmother...Where was it? When was it? name of the Parents?, ect. Then to Veronica...where was she born, when, name of parents on the birth records, etc. The back another generation. I come from Massachusetts. I have not attempted to access records from Boston...but I never had any trouble at the town hall getting records back to before 1900...but you have to have the date...fairly accurate, to get the record. You can start with Veronica's death record...that should be readily available. Obituaries might contain names of friends and family you are unaware of that can help in your search.

6. Where did Veronica marry? What state and When? Where was she in 1920? Do you have any idea? Where did Margaret end up? Did she marry? What was her married name? Are her children still living...can you contact them?

7. The story about her running away to marry Carmelo...why did she arrive with her brother? Why was it some time before they appear to have married? All this is not quite there...something is missing in the story that makes me think it might be true, it could be true, but nothing there to support it. What happened to Matteo? Did he return to Italy? Did he stay in Lawerence? Cannot find him in the census, but then it was very late last night. If you can find him, find the family of Rose Zappala you might find others that can help with the line.

8. You can write and ask the commune to check the records. However, I would want to be absolutely sure I was asking the right commune that question before I asked. You need to verify where she was born before you write. It allows you to request more accurately. This is where family stories might be telling the tale correctly. Go back and analyze what has been told to you and try and find the truth in it...sometimes it is right up front and sometimes it is hiding just behind something else. Almost all the stories have some truth. But many stories have many story tellers and the embellishments go on. That is Suanj pointed out that if indeed the 1910 census is the point of origin, the one fact you can prove by the documents, then start there....events that occur closer to the date they are listed tend to be the most accurate. 20 years later, there is variation in what someone remembers happened in 1910 and what actually did.

Your quest is complicated by your personal time to spend on it, we understand that. We don't want to chastise you for it...only point out that if you can find the time, your own personal research of records might prove beneficial. And forget the language thing...I don't speak any foreign language...and my high school Latin is over 40 years ago. You can get a translation dictionary and read the records. It is hard to start with, but it becomes easier once you have the gist of it. And if you think she was born in the month of April of a specific year, it narrows it all down a bit. But it could be the April of the year before that date or the April of the year after.......one thing I have found is that the dates by year are invariably off....and they did seem to be a couple of years younger in the states then in Italy...particularly the women!!! So bear that in mind.

If you could tell us what happened to the family from 1910 to the birth of your grandmother...places, names, etc...that you know, maybe we can find something for you....We know there are gaps, but just the facts even if they are few. Then we will see if we can fill in the years. Also, how sure are you that the Carmelo in Illinois is your Carmelo? Is it just based upon date of birth alone or is there another clue?

Let us know and we shall see what is available. Remember Joe Friday in Dragnet?????( Of course you are probably very young and never heard of Dragnet while I am giving up my age for all to see) He always stated: "Just the facts, ma'm, just the facts." He could have been speaking about Genealogy!!!!!!!!!!!!