Proietto or Figlio Naturale

[jazzycat12]

We have a foundling in our family tree. No parents were recorded. In one index to his birth he is referred to as "proietto" and in another as "figlio naturale", why would that be please?


Susan

[suanj]

Hi, normally, in the old italian language the "projetto or proietto" was the foundling; no parent's names. Instead the words " figlio naturale" was used for a child recognized by biological parent or parents, but they was:
or unmarried, or married to other partners.
So the word "figlio" =son indicates a different situation, that is, indicates that it is a son, yes, but not born from the legitimate spouse, so it is the result of an adulterous relationship.
This distinction no longer exists in Italy, as it has belonged to the past, only the foundling status remained.
Best regards,
suanj

[jazzycat12]

Many thanks suanj for explaining this.



Susan

[carubia]

I just want to clarify that a "figlio naturale" does not necessarily imply an adulterous relationship. If the parents were not married to anyone, including each other, then their child would be a figlio naturale (assuming at least one of the parents acknowledged paternity or maternity), but there would be no adultery involved.

[suanj]

I kindly note the carubia, which in the old past, in Italy, every situation not covered in Catholic marriage was an adulterous situation. I think I've been clear. I am firmly convinced of what I say.

[suanj]

to evaluate my affirmations with rationality and the present culture is not adequate, because we are talking about Italian situations in the old past

[carubia]

In English "adultery" means a relationship in which one of the parties is married to someone else.

[suanj]

Yes, currently also in Italy, but in the old past, in Italy, the meaning was different, the meaning was much more complex, and anyone can understand the situation, especially for the women. For exemple a woman, that have a child without to be married, and she recognized the child, well this woman was called with a bad word and normally she was marginalized...

[carubia]

We are responding to someone who asked a question now, in modern English. If you answer using older definitions of words that no longer apply you are likely to be misunderstood. I was clarifying, for the person who asked the question, that with "figlio naturale" it was not necessary for either parent to have been married. In other words, fornication was involved, but not necessarily adultery, as the term is used in the modern sense and what the OP would probably have interpreted it to mean.

[suanj]

Maybe better of adultery we can use illegal, illegitimate etc... but whatewer it is the word used, for the community in the past time, I remember my grandmother and grandauntes, to say abt any situation no in the religious sacrament, as a adultery' s situation... It was old culture, especially in south Italy....

[suanj]

We are responding to someone who asked a question now, in modern English. If you answer using older definitions of words that no longer apply you are likely to be misunderstood. I was clarifying, for the person who asked the question, that with "figlio naturale" it was not necessary for either parent to have been married. In other words, fornication was involved, but not necessarily adultery, as the term is used in the modern sense and what the OP would probably have interpreted it to mean.

Yes carubia, but refering to a old italian situation, abt proietto and figlio naturale... Currently figluo naturale don' t exist anymore in modern italian language

[carubia]

The OP is asking now what the phrase means so we should respond using modern English so that we will be understood. Whether the term "figlio naturale" is still used is irrelevant. If someone asked, in English, what a procurator was, I wouldn't respond in Latin.

Here's a definition that I think we can agree on: "figlio naturale" = a (male) child born to parents who are not married to each other and at least one of the parents is known.

Let's not use the word "adultery" since there seems to be some disagreement about its meaning.

[jazzycat12]

Thanks for the input from both of you Carubia and suanj, much appreciated.


Susan

[suanj]

When I write about the past time in Italy, I express the things I know it, and I know them well, and explain how certain situations were seen and lived, as they were judged by the community at the historical past time, and what meaning that was attributed in the past to those words. Those who are not Italian can not judge the Italian things of the past, with a foreign and modern culture. I tried to explain to my better, and I don't understand the polemic. I say my thought, you say your thought, but I am italian and I know the italian facts. If you don't agree, well, it is good also, but I remain of my opinion.

[carubia]

suanj,

It seems that you still don't understand my point. I wasn't disagreeing with you about the situation in Italy or in any other country, in any time period. I just wanted to make sure that the OP understood what figlio naturale meant, because the English words you used to describe it could cause confusion.