Index search request or record copy request from NARA?

[mervirgo]

Hi all,

I'm applying for citizenship via jure sanguinis, father-->grandfather. Background: My grandfather came to the US in 1923 at the age of 14. His father, who also came to the US, naturalized in 1923, and listed my grandfather as a minor on his certificate of naturalization. However, in 1924, my grandfather also obtained an Italian passport, so I have reason to believe he remained a dual citizen.

In any case, I have a document called the "Certificate of Naturalization," which belongs to my great-grandfather (and is where my grandfather and the other children are listed). The certificate lists its "volume" and "number." I have been told that I need not only a newer copy of this document, but the "long form" of it (the one I have is only 1 page).

My question is this. Through USCIS Genealogy, I can make either an "index search request" or "record copy request", as the first step. Most people need to make an "index search request" first in order to find the number of the document they need. However, since I already have the certificate of naturalization -- just not the long form -- can I skip that step? (There is a 6-month backlog for the index search requests alone).

In other words, does anyone know if the record number of the certificate of naturalization that I HAVE (i.e., the short form) would be the SAME record number as that of a long-form certificate of naturalization? Or are they considered two different documents?

Thanks so much!
Amanda

[johnnyonthespot]

Something about this doesn't add up correctly...

But, putting that aside, since you have the certificate of naturalization already, you can skip the Index Search and just do a document request. The certificate has an 8-digit number on it, correct? Put a "C" in front of that number and you now have the "C file" number required for a document request.

[mervirgo]

Thanks, Johnny! And, uh-oh, what do you mean something doesn't add up correctly? The passport thing?

[johnnyonthespot]

My sense of it is that your grandfather - because he was a minor child at the time - was automatically naturalized along with his father in 1923.

If true, then (sadly) the line has been broken.

But all is not lost: worst case, I believe you would be able to apply for naturalization after residing in Italy for 3 years.

Much more detail is necessary before jumping to any conclusions, however.

[mervirgo]

Hi Johnny,
That's what I thought for years. But the fact that my grandfather got an Italian passport AFTER being listed as "naturalized" certainly gives me second thoughts... what could that mean other than that he was a dual citizen?

I had a meeting with an Italian immigration lawyer last week here in Rome, too, who mentioned that in any case, to Italy, "naturalizing" as a US citizen doesn't mean renouncing Italian citizenship, unless a separate renunciation document was filled out. I know that's not what anything online or anything official says anywhere, but this guy's been dealing with immigration for ages and it's what he said... so I was holding out hope regardless!

[johnnyonthespot]

Hi Johnny,
That's what I thought for years. But the fact that my grandfather got an Italian passport AFTER being listed as "naturalized" certainly gives me second thoughts... what could that mean other than that he was a dual citizen?

It is possible that your grandfather got the Italian passport (unknowingly) under false pretenses. If no one bothered to mention that his father had naturalized blah, blah, blah, then Italy would have no reason to deny him a passport.

However, I am inclined to believe that - if you were applying in the US - the consulate would look at your great-grandfather's naturalzation certificate and say "Uh-oh, I see that your grandfather lost his Italian citizenship at age 14..." and that would be the end of that. Possibly by applying in Rome you may be able to slip that one by.

I had a meeting with an Italian immigration lawyer last week here in Rome, too, who mentioned that in any case, to Italy, "naturalizing" as a US citizen doesn't mean renouncing Italian citizenship, unless a separate renunciation document was filled out.

That is true today (actually, since 1992 if I recall correctly), but was not true in 1923.

Quick question: where exactly was your grandfather located on the day his father naturalized. It may make a world of difference if he was still in Italy vs. if he was already in the US on that fateful day.

Another quick question: Your grandfather was actually born in Italy, correct?

[mervirgo]

Hi there,

It looks like when my great-grandfather naturalized, his son was in Italy. I say that because Luigi (my great-grandfather) naturalized on January 30 1923 (and this is the document that lists his minor children, although it does NOT appear to say they're naturalized as well), but:

-his son, Grazio's, Italian passport was issued in January 1924;
-a certificate authorizing that Grazio was born in Pescina, Italy and is authorized for immigration was issued in November 1923;
-another form saying he's fit for immigration was issued from Pescina in July 1923;
and so on.

And yes, Grazio was born in Pescina, Italy in 1908.

What do you think?

Mandy