Only lack the GF's marriage cert, next steps?

[amaglioc]

Hey, all,

I’ve read the forum with equal parts nervousness and anticipation. I’m nearing the end of my collection process, having gathered everything for the “grandfather to father to meâ€

[johnnyonthespot]

Does either of your grandparents' birth certificates contain an annotation ("Annotazioni") concerning their marriage? If not, then I would consider the possibility that they did not marry in Italy (certainly not in Frosinone) or possibly married in the church and never registered their marriage with the comune. This latter is somewhat unlikely as by that time civil registration was required by law.

You might try contacting churches; however there are going to be a substantial number of them in Frosinone.

Because she was so young, it is quite possible that they eloped and married in another comune entirely.

You could always forcefully make the case with the consulate that marriage is not a prerequisite to jus sanguinis citizenship. You do not have to prove that each person in your lineage was a legitimate child, only that he or she comes from Italian blood. Your birth certificate lists your father's name in detail substantial enough to identify him clearly. Your father's birth certificate lists your grandfather's name in detail substantial enough to identify him beyond doubt. Technically, that (along with the naturalization data, of course) should be all that is needed for a jus sanguinis case; everything else is just fluff.

[amaglioc]

Thank you for the feedback! I'm sending letters to a few communes where I suspect the family might have ties.

Another question if I can: is there any harm in sending letters to several communes (from the nifty letter-generator linked on these forums) and hoping for a hit somewhere? Other than the postage it costs me to send the letters?

[johnnyonthespot]

Another question if I can: is there any harm in sending letters to several communes (from the nifty letter-generator linked on these forums) and hoping for a hit somewhere? Other than the postage it costs me to send the letters?

I am sure people do it all the time. Harm to you? As you said, just the cost of postage, paper, a few envelopes - which you might even be able to beat by using email instead.

Harm to the comuni? Well, sure. Extra work and all that stuff...

[amaglioc]

Oops, forgot to answer your question. Sorry!

No, neither Italian birth certificate indicates the marriage, no annotation, in other words. I see what you mean about that indicating a marriage elsewhere.

I understand what you've said about burdening the communes, and I've read what others have written here about how busy those individuals are all the time. I am only sending three letters, I've decided, to places where I have real evidence that they could have been married. Torrice, because my grandfather's sister claimed it as a birth town on a ship's record, and Supino because there are many families with my grandmother's last name in that region and I think it's possible she was born there. If Torrice and Supino don't work out, then I'm back to a cold case.

I read this morning someone mentioned Census forms. I have both the 1920 and 1930 US census showing them as married. I'll print those and add it to the file.

I'm so close to being finished now that I've become obsessed about this last document.

Has anyone heard stories of how it goes in Houston?

[suanj]

Hi,
the first son, Antonio Magliocco, on the ship's manifest, seeming born around the 1900... so maybe your Giacomo and Teresa married around 1896/99 ...
When you requested the marriage certificate, you said that they married abt 1892/3 ??? If so, the civil records officer of Frosinone searched in this 2 years...
but I have some doubt abt Teresa age of 15 at marriage time... she was in minor age ... and needing of special consent from parents and also by bishop..

Instead I believe they married around 1896/99... Giacomo was born abt 1872, so abt in 1892 he was in military service... and passing almost 1 year, so he was dicharged in 1893 or so... he married after....

the fact that on the birth certificate it are no marriage note, meaning nothing, because not all civil records officers making that in the past..
( the note of marriage on the original birthact);
Giacomo, when came the first time in USA, in 1904, he was married .. that by ship's manifest... no doubt...

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Giacom Magliocco
Name: Giacom Magliocco
Arrival Date: 17 Mar 1904
Birth Year: abt 1873
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: Italian
Port of Departure: Naples, Italy
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Germania
Search Ship Database: Search the Germania in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

they sure married in Frosinone, but in date before of first son birth...
if you can search by Mormon's microfilms:

Title Registri dello stato civile di Frosinone (Frosinone), 1871-1899
Authors Frosinone (Frosinone). Ufficio dello stato civile (Main Author)
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library ... ++di++Fros++

you can try in this microfilms:
Matrimoni 1887-1889, 1892-1895 FHL INTL Film
1897706
Matrimoni 1897-1899 FHL INTL Film
1897707 Item 1

in second option, if they NO married in Frosinone, however the marriage banns was made in Frosinone ( this for italian law), so almost the banns must be in Frosinone, as a well the transcription of marriage (in the case that they married in other place), so maybe the transcription can be in Frosinone civil records after some month of marriage date...

in Mormon's microfilms it are no all marriage banns but only:

Pubblicazioni 1890-1891 FHL INTL Film
1898879 Item 16
Pubblicazioni 1896 FHL INTL Film
1898880 Item 1
however, by my experience, I can say you that sometimes it possible that the officer no find the record for some reason, so, if you wish, you can search by yourself in Frosinone microfilms, and I believe you will find the marriage record...
just my opinion...
all the best,
suanj

[KarenChristino]

I found the Family History Library microfilms extremely helpful. I had estimated my great-grandparents' marriage date from my great-aunt's birthday on my GGF's Naturalization Petition. But when I got the microfilms, I found out that she was actually born two years earlier. And then they also had another girl that we never knew about who died before they left Italy. And you can also just search the wedding indexes for the banns or the weddings -- that gave me the month and year.

[kontessa]

I agree with suanj, that maybe the year of marriage is incorrect. Checking the Frosinone microfilms from LDS may be helpful, IF they are complete. If you have time, order the films and do a search. You can send your letters to the other comunes while waiting for the films to arrive.

If after reviewing the films, or before if you are still worried about not having the record, you could always think about hiring a researcher to go to Frosinone for you. (Italysearcher, for one. ) As you mentioned, the Nalli name was very common through several of the towns in this area - I saw many on headstones in the cemetary in Supino!!

After all that searching you might still come up empty-handed, but at least you'll feel more confident that the record doesn't exist. Good luck!

[amaglioc]

Thank you all so much for the discussion and information!

Suanj, you found ships records I did not know existed before, which is valuable to me in itself!

I will order the LDS films, yes, and I happen to live only 200 yards from the Mormon church here in Denton, Texas. Its an easy stroll down the block.

I am very grateful for the help and suggestions. I'll share what I learn and I will definitely update the group as I interact with the Italian Consulate in Houston.

[amaglioc]

Another question, more of a hypothetical for so many of you with much more experience than I have: how often do you find a census taker has made a simple math error, or misunderstood what they're told by non-native speakers?

I ask because on the 1930 census, the "age of first marriage" listed for Teresa is "15" and for Giacamo is "19", both of which are consistent with a marriage year of 1892, specifically between 23 Feb and 29 Sep, their birthdays.

Here's the census page:

http://cycloneroad.com/images/Misc/1930census.jpg

But I was thinking, what if the census taker asked for the year they were married and misunderstood their answer. Then by his own math derived these ages? Does that seem too far-fetched?

[kontessa]

Census records are sometimes riddled with errors...misspelled names, incorrect ages, year of immigration, etc.. Unfortunately some of the consulates rely on these as supporting documentation.

[amaglioc]

Thanks, kontessa. In my case, absent the marriage certificate (so far). the census forms would actually help. I have both the 1920 and 1930 census showing my grandparents as married (in addition to the various birth and death certs listing their names as husband and wife).

[kontessa]

There are also census records from NYS - I have copies from 1915 and 1925. Don't know if they would help you at all, but they were great to have. Found them in a county clerk's office in NYS.

[kontessa]

This is way more than you need, but there are always the applications for a SS#! Digging for information is so much fun, isn't it?? Some of those contain errors, too, but you never know. My GGF's mother's name was Domenica. On his SS application, his mother's name was listed as Betsy. We have never had a Betsy in our family!!

[suanj]

another clue:
sometimes it was the "fuitina";
the "fuitina" =run away from homes by fiances (spell?)...
and in this case, if the fiances was in minor age( also Giacomo was in minor age when 19 old), when back at homes, they married in church, without civil effects, and in adult age married in the Town Hall, for civil marriage...
sometimes, after church marriage, the spouses remaining in own parent's home, until the civil marriage...

that is possible.. that can explain why Giacomo and Teresa declaring the marriage in minor age... and that can explain why the first child was born in 1899 and no before...


I believe that this could be also your ancestor:
1910 United States Federal Census
about Geacomo Maglioca
Name: Geacomo Maglioca
[Giacomo Maglioca]
Age in 1910: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Boarder
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Home in 1910: Newark Ward 4, Essex, New Jersey
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male
Year of Immigration: 1906
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Louis Carcenga 42
Filemina Carcenga 40
Dolcisma Carcenga 16
Ricci Carcenga 14
Marnie Carcenga 12
Joseph Carcenga 7
James Santorro 32
Alfonso Ferdrici 41
Augustuis Seatea 20
Joseph Crecenga 21
Riggeta Seatea 20
Carsar Seatea 19
Geacomo Maglioca 37
Angelo Diorio 27
John Yarquisti 17

number of marriage's years: 18

however for dual citizenship you need of civil marriage certificate, so the better way is to search in LDS microfilms.
All the best,
suanj