Query on Italian in Brazil late 1800s re Birth record

[acartia]

My paternal grandfather, spent some time in Brazil, and as the family story goes he was involved in coffee and importing statuettes from Italy.I have no idea what part of Brazil they lived. Their first children were born in Brazil,but then the family returned to Italy, and that is when my father and another one or two kids were born. My question is the following......I would like to try and get a birth certificate for one of his older sisters born in Brazil at about 1898.Anyone have any idea where I should start looking for this Brazilian birth record. Not having a more specific location in Brazil must make it very hard.Records from Italy are my primary focus at present,as I have just started my research again, but the Brazil period is something I would like to pursue when I can manage a bit of extra time. Any ideas to get started for this birth record would be greatly appreciated.John

[johnnyonthespot]

John, since the children were born Italian (their father was an Italian citizen) and they returned to Italy, I think it is very highly likely that their births would have been registered in their father's comune. They should appear in the birth atti register either for the year they were born (if their father notified the consulate in Brazil of the births) or - more likely - the year immediately following their return to Italy.

When you contact the comune stato civile office, you must explain both the year and place of birth and also the year the children "returned" to Italy and ask the official to search the atti for both periods.

No promises, but I think this should work. Perhaps Livio or suanj can confirm my thought process?

[acartia]

Carmine what you have suggested, does now ring a bell.Yes I do remember now, another similar post from memory on here but maybe some other site, whereby an Italian citizen, living in another country, was expected to register the births back in Italy. In trying to obtain a birth certificate from an unknown locality in Brazil,would be very hard or impossible,I would think,but if the grandfather did what was to be done, the information should be back in Italy.I understand there is always that chance that the births may not of been registered as required,but I betcha he did register them.Time will tell on that.I am just getting ready to put another query in, related to this in some general way, in terms of LDS films. Carmine thanks for your help, I reckon you have put me on the right path.John

[johnnyonthespot]

John,

Although technically required, not all Italians who emigrated abroad bothered to register the births of their children with the local consulate. One common reason was that they did not want their sons to be called up for Italian military service.

However, one thing is almost a certainty: if they returned to Italy - especially while the children were minors but even if not - the children would have been added to the birth registry in the ancestral comune. I don't see how it could have been otherwise. The difficulty is, they would probably have been added in Parte II of the registry for the year in which they were registered (probably the same year they returned to Italy), not the year in which they were born.

As an example, my birth as well as my wife's appear in Parte II Series B of the 2008 registry of my ancestral comune. Our son's birth (which I registered a year after my citizenship was recognized) is in Parte II Series B of the 2010 registry.

PS: Thanks to Livio (liviomoreno) for this helpful info from an earlier thread:

A death book register is divided in 2 parts:

Parte 1 - Contains the death records of the people who died in their house

Parte 2 - Contains the death records of the people who died in other places and is divided in 3 series:
Serie A: people who died in another town
Serie B: people who died in hospitals, jails, etc
Serie C: people who died abroad, during an airplane or ship disaster or in war, etc

Parte 1 and Part 2A and 2B usually use printed forms while Part 2C is usually 100% handwritten


Birth Acts

Parte 1 Serie A: Contains the births announced to the Ufficio di Stato Civile.
Parte 1 Serie B: Contains the births announced to the Ufficio di Stato Civile more than 10 days after the actual birth
Parte 2 Serie A: Contains the records of birth occurred in a town which is different from the residency
Parte 2 Serie B: Contains the records of birth occurred in hospitals, abroad, on a ship, etc.

Marriage acts

Parte 1 contains the marriages celebrated in the town hall
Other marriages are recorded in Parte 2...

All of the above is not 100% accurate, rules may have changed overtime...

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/t ... ilit=parte

[acartia]

That is interesting Carmine, but I will need a little time to fully work that out, in terms of the Parte 11 etc. But as I understand(which maybe I am wrong on my part!) from what you have told me, is that if an Italian citizen was born in another country, say in 1898, and then the family returned to Italy in say 1905, we could expect to see (if of course they did register the overseas birth{s}when the family returned) the entry in the 1905 Italian records or maybe a year later,but of course under the Parte sections.Very interesting, and thanks again Carmine and also for Livio`s information. John

[johnnyonthespot]

If the overseas births were registered at the local consulate at the time they occurred, the consulate would have sent the information to the comune and it would have been added into the registry Parte II Series B for that same year, 1890-something.

However, if the births were not registered at that time, they (it seems to me) would have had to have been registered when the family returned to Italy. I mean, the children would have to get into "the system" somehow, otherwise they would have been treated as illegal immigrants or some such. In this case, they would have been entered into Parte II Series B for the "current" year - 1905 using your example.

In simple terms, the registries are annual in nature: on January 1st of each year new registries were begun for births, marriages, deaths, etc, and entries were made in each of the various Parte's in sequential order as the events occurred. On December 31st, the registries were closed and soon after the indexes were manually created by scanning through the books and listing the names in alphabetical order along with the associated entry number.

Once a set of registries was closed at the end of the year, it remained closed to new entries (but annotations could be added at a later date; for example birth records might have notations added concerning marriage or death of the indivicual). So, if someone came along and said, Hey, I forgot to tell you about my two children who were born 7 and 10 years ago...", those children's births would be recorded in the current year's registries.

[acartia]

Yes the births should have been or could have been sent to the consulate for the actual year of birth in the foreign country and then sent onto the commune back home. But of course as you say they may not have been given to the office overseas, but put in late or very late when the family returned to Italy.I will find out what did happen once I get the requests sent away for some certificates to the commune. I will continue this post when I get news back, but that may be months away.....I just wonder if he did supply the births to the consulate in Brazil?! If not, I am sure he did that when he returned, I have confidence in my family, well we all do of course, fingers crossed. Thanks Carmine.

[johnnyonthespot]

...I just wonder if he did supply the births to the consulate in Brazil?!

Common reasons cited for not doing so:

a) We don't plan to ever return to Italy, so why bother? At the time in question, people were leaving Italy for mostly economic reasons and did not especially care about their heritage or citizenship - afterall, hundreds of thousands (millions?) of them renounced their Italian citizenship when they naturalized in other countries..

b) If you registered the birth of a son, no matter where, he was subject to Italian military service when he turned 19 years of age. If he failed to report for duty at that time, he would be branded a deserter and would be subject to arrest when and if found.

[acartia]

Carmine,I should have mentioned this when I posted it I suppose, but at that time, it did not seem relevant.When my grandfather went to Brazil, I am not sure that he had any kids before he left at all.But I do know that at least 2 kids or maybe even three were born in Brazil. And they were all girls. So thinking about that, he would not have been thinking about military service for those kids, well of course,all being girls. But I totally understand what you are saying for sons born overseas or the same back home of course. The family story is, and as we all know, it is only a family story!..... My father said, that his father said(not to him of course!) he was going back to Italy to have at least one child born back in the old country. So my father was born back in Italy, and was the only son. So it was only girls born in Brazil, and then Italo (my father) in 1911, back in Italy when the family returned, and then one girl born after that, but there is mention of a later child(I think a girl) dying at birth.So out of all this did he register or not in Brazil? He may have, seeing all the early ones born in Brazil were girls. I am looking forward to finding out the facts.I will keep you up to date,though it will take time, and I so much appreciate your help.John