Birth Date error on Petition for Naturalization

[lisahickey]

I'm gathering paperwork for my husband's family. Among many documents, we have the petition of naturalization for his GGF and his GF's birth certificate (GGM was pregnant with GF when petition was issued, but happily for us, he was born before naturalization actually took place). HOWEVER the copy of the Oath of Allegiance which was sent with the petition for naturalization states that GF was born on Sept. 27 1916, but his birthday was actually Sept. 17th. Is it necessary to get this oath changed? We also have the original Cert. of Naturalization, but I don't have this yet so haven't seen it to see if/how GF's birth date is listed on it. If I have to get the petition changed, how do I go about that?

[johnnyonthespot]

You cannot get the naturalization documents changed.

Most consulates used to give at least a little leeway on this matter, but recently NYC for one has clamped down really, really, hard claiming to have done so under direction of the Italian equivalent of our Department of State. If true, then one would assume that all consulates will take a similar stance. See these threads on point:

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/topic22551.html

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/topic21748.html

[lisahickey]

Thanks for the links - my understanding is that I need a Judge to produce a document saying that GF is the same person on both docs - what I am more unclear about is which judge? How do I find one? GF is deceased, and all documents were from Connecticut (I am in NYC), and thus under the jurisdiction of the Boston office of NARA (although if I do need a judge, this seems less relevant). Do I just call the Waterbury Superior Court and ask them to send me a letter? Is that the best place to start at least? Or is there some other way to find out which Judge I need?

[johnnyonthespot]

Waterbury, CT? That is where I live!

Anyway, maybe you can PM our member "screaminmonkey" (http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/member31978.html) and ask him how he went about getting the judge's letter/order.

I have to say, I don't know how demanding the Boston consulate is being on this subject; you may decide to take a "wait and see" approach. When I applied in NYC 1n 2008, a three day discrepancy between my grandfather's Italian birth certificate and most other documents was ignored. As mentioned earlier, I don't believe I would get away with this today in NYC, but Boston is a different consulate and may apply different standards.

Also, check the "Consulate FAQs" and "Embassies & Consulates" forums on this board: http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.org/index.php

[sceaminmonkey]

it was hard. I mean really effing hard to get the letter. I am still unsure mainly because there were some days when I went to 8 or 9 different offices in just one building. until a lovely clerk helped me to get the letter I was lost. I am still waiting to hand it in. I have been on vacation but I plan on going in and talking to the clerk who helped me to get the letter. it basically states that my ggf is the person stated on this petition for naturalization and the same person on the italian birth certificate etc. I am really sorry But I am still so unsure. If you go through ny talk to a guy named herb. Apparently rnigro was handed my first attempt with a denial letter to prove that it can not be done by a clerk. I am still waiting for my new letter to become public record so I can show other forum members online my paper work. I can't understand it for crap. I am really sorry I am not being helpful but sometime next week I am going to go in. Sorry school is around the corner and I am busy! if you want feel free to pm me if you have questions. if you want I can show you my letter as well!

[sceaminmonkey]

just to be clear if you go through new york. Just keep at them and say I know it has been done. make them dig up my record!!! both records!!!!

[johnnyonthespot]

PS: Re-reading your earlier post, I now understand that you are in NYC and would be applying at the NYC consulate. If so, it seems that you will definitely fall under these new demands that NYC has been making.

[mler]

If you have the Certificate of Naturalization, you won't need the preliminary papers--declaration, petition and oath.

The Certificate of Naturalization will likely not list either the names or the birthdates of the minor children.

[lisahickey]

Thanks everyone - I'll call the Boston consulate to double check your advice mler, b/c we do have the Certificate, so if we don't need the oath at all then the problem disappears! We are going to apply in Boston AND in NY b/c there are multiple family members in each place (adult siblings). Johnnyonthespot - my mother in laws family are all from Waterbury - Italian on both sides - last names Becce and Clapps. Thanks so much for your help with this!

[mler]

Actually, when I submitted applications in NY (and Newark), I did not have a certificate of naturalization so I was only submitting preliminary papers.

On the petition, my father's birthdate was totally incorrect. I pulled the petition from the packet and submitted only the declaration and the oath (the oath did not list the names and birthdates of the children). No one noticed the missing petition. This was several years ago, however.

[lisahickey]

Uh oh - I just looked through my docs and found that I have a copy of the Certificate of Naturalization (getting original this weekend) and the names and ages of minor children are listed on it, and GF is NOT, although he was born at this time. What do I do about this?

[johnnyonthespot]

Forget about the certificate and just go with the petition and oath of allegiance instead.

Re-reading this thread, I now realize that it is your GF's date of birth which is off by 10 days on your GGF's naturalization petition. This is a slightly different scenario than I first thought, and slightly different than the cases in which NYC balked that I pointed to earlier. It (the date discrepancy) may still be an issue, or it may not.

It is a tough call - if you go with only the certificate, the consulate will rightly wonder if it is for the correct person since your GF is not listed (but other children are) even though he would have been already born at the time the certificate was issued. What is the amount of time elapsed between your GF's birth and the certificate issue date? If it is short, maybe you will be able to talk your way through it.

If forced to present the petition, then you have to deal with the date discrepancy. You may get a free pass on that, or you may have no choice but to try for the judge's letter or order of finding as previously discussed.

[lisahickey]

Yes, it is tricky.

Petition for Naturalization was made in June 1916
GF was born Sept 17 1916
Certificate of Naturalization was made in Dec 1916
Oath of Allegiance was signed on the same day in Dec 1916 and lists GF's birthday as Sept. 27.

Complicating things is the fact that Boston told me I had to get everything certified by the NY Consulate since the documents were all issued in CT, and thus are under the jurisdiction of the NY Consulate, so even if Boston would be more lenient, I don't think I can them certified by NY without fixing this. I am going to call the Boston Consulate to see if they have any advice, since they have a live person on the other end, and hopefully they'll be able to help. I'd be happy to get the judge's letter - I just have to figure out where to begin with that. Maybe Waterbury Superior Court?

[johnnyonthespot]

Technically, in the process you mentioned, NY is only supposed to certify that the documents appear to be authentic; the content of the document is another matter for another day. The NYC consulate has a reputation for sticking its nose where it doesn't belong; however if you don't send all documents there at one time, there would be no reason for them to notice any discrepancies.

The front page of the petition states the name and location of the court where the petition was filed; that is the court where you should begin your efforts.

[lisahickey]

Great - thank you so much! I'll start with Waterbury then.