Advice Sought - Birth Records for Trabia, 1883

[Thaimint]

Hello,

I am researching two of my ancestors, James Vincent Tortorice, of Elizabeth, PA, and his wife, Maria Tortorice nee Rubino.

According to James' death certificate, he was born September 11th, 1883, in "Tarbia [sic], Italy", to James Tortorice, Sr, and what looks like "May" Sunseri. However, even operating under the assumption that James' given name was likely Vincenzo, I have been unable to locate anything close in date on familysearch at:

Italy, Palermo, Termini Imerese, Civil Registration (Tribunale), 1862-1910 > Trabia > Nati 1872-1901

Nor was I able to locate a likely Maria Rubino, whose death certificate I do not have, but who was born January 17th, 1884, according to family lore.

I recently read that some Italians consider Trabia and Termini Imerese to be the same place, so I thought to check the films at:

Italy, Palermo, Termini Imerese, Civil Registration (Tribunale), 1862-1910 > Termini Imerese > Allegati (vari) 1881-1883

and

Italy, Palermo, Termini Imerese, Civil Registration (Tribunale), 1862-1910 > Termini Imerese > Allegati (vari) 1883-1884

but I don't understand how the items are organized, and I can't find a corresponding index.

Any advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated, or if anyone who knows about Tortorices, Sunseris, and Rubinos happens to have any pertinent info, please let me know.

Thanks.

[Marcello_DAleo]

#214, Trabia, 12 Sep 1884.
Birth record of Vincenzo Turturici, son of Giuseppe (age 30, peasant) and Domenica Sunseri. The child was born in Trabia at 8 am of 11 Sep 1884, in the home located in Via Turturici #7.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246770501

[Marcello_DAleo]

Trabia and Termini Imerese ARE NOT the same place. They are very close, but they aren't the same place. They are two different Comunes, with two different offices for vital records... and different parish churches.

[adelfio]

Hi Marcello adding a little more family

Marriage of Giuseppe Turturici and Domenica Sunseri
Index#19
1877 July 11th in Trabia before civil official Antonino Gatto appeared Giuseppe Turturici age 24 peasant born and resides in Trabia son of deceased Vincenzo Turturici and Giuseppa Cozzo married Domenica Sunseri age 26 born and resides in Trabia daughter of Giuseppe Sunseri and Caterina Teresi

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246641901

Marty

[adelfio]

Birth record of Giuseppe Turturici
Index#87
1853 July 15th in Trabia before civil official Pietro Gatto appeared Vincenzo Turturici age 46 peasant to declare at the 7th hour of the same day and month the birth of baby boy by his wife Giuseppa Cozzo age 40 they named Giuseppe Turturici

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246018001

Birth record of Domenica Sunseri
Index#86
1851 May 17th in Trabia before civil official Vincenzo Salemi appeared Giuseppe Sunseri age 42 peasant to declare at the 3rd hour of the same day and month the birth of baby girl by his wife Caterina Teresi age 34 they named Domenica Sunseri

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246018001

Marty

[adelfio]

Death record of Vincenzo Turturici (father of Giuseppe Turturici)
Index#57
1861 Aug 22nd in the town of Trabia before civil official Francesco Miltello appeared Salvatore Galluzzo age 36 porter and Filippo Filardi age 42 peasant at the 10th hour to declare the death of Vincenzo Turturici age 53 born in Trabia (abt 1808) husband of Giuseppa Cozzo and son of deceased Giuseppe Turturici and deceased Anna Ciraulo

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246018001

Marty

[adelfio]

Was Maria Rubino Tortorice married twice?

Mary Tortorice mentioned in the record of Leonardo Natale and Mary Tortorice

Name Leonardo Natale
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 01 Oct 1938
Event Place Elizabeth, Allegheny, Pennsylvania, United States
Age 47
Birth Year (Estimated) 1891
Father's Name Frank C. Natale
Mother's Name Carmela Dorecia Natale
Spouse's Name Mary Tortorice
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1886
Spouse's Father's Name Joseph Rubino
Spouse's Mother's Name Jennie Spitaleria Rubino

Marty

[Thaimint]

Thanks so much for your prompt responses, and for helping me out. Your skills are impressive!

Marcello, the birth record you found certainly sounds like it could be him, however it conflicts with the year (1883) printed on his death certificate. In your experience, is this a common inconsistency with 1st generations? Also, I'm assuming from your response that "May" is a possible nickname for Domenica? And "James" for Giuseppe?

Adelfio, I had to check with someone but yes, Mary did remarry, but no one seems to remember her second husband's name (they probably divorced). The marriage record you are showing would have been 2 years after the death of James Tortorice, so it seems likely to be her. However, as with Marcello's information, 1886 as a birth date varies from the other sources of information I have for her.

Perhaps Mary lied to her second husband to make herself seem younger?

For that matter, maybe James lied to someone along the way to make himself seem older? We think James emigrated in May 1902, which, if he was born in September 1884, would have made him 17, so maybe he told people he was born in 1883 to appear as though he was 18?

[adelfio]

I think Marcello has the right birth act for Vincenzo Turturici heres the Trabia birth index for 1883 as you can see no Vincenzo Turturici listed
PG LINK TO INDEX 1883 BIRTHS
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246770501

Did Vincenzo and Maria have any children?
A lot of times death record info is given by a family member and Ive seen date mistakes made frequently

Marty

[adelfio]

Is this the family
United States Census, 1920

Name Vincent Tortorice
Event Type Census
Event Year 1920
Event Place Elizabeth, Allegheny, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender Male
Age 35
Marital Status Married
Race White
Race (Original) White
Can Read Yes
Can Write Yes
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Relationship to Head of Household (Original) Head
Own or Rent Rent
Birth Year (Estimated) 1885
Birthplace Italy
Immigration Year 1901
Father's Birthplace Italy
Mother's Birthplace Italy
Vincent Tortorice Head M 35 Italy
Maria Tortorice Wife F 34 Italy
Joseph Tortorice Son M 17 Pennsylvania
Antonio Tortorice Son M 13 Pennsylvania
Vincent Tortorice Jr. Son M 12 Pennsylvania
Salvatore Tortorice Son M 10 Pennsylvania
Dominick Tortorice Son M 8 Pennsylvania
Ignacio Tortorice Son M 5 Pennsylvania
Domenica Tortorice Daughter F 1 Pennsylvania

Marty

[adelfio]

I think the family informat got the wrong info on the death record

Heres the right birth date
Vincenzo Turturici
United States World War I Draft Registration Cards
Name Vincenzo Turturici
Event Type Draft Registration
Event Date 1917-1918
Event Place Allegheny County no 9, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender Male
Birth Date 12 Sep 1884
Wife Mary Turturici

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6JP-WYW

Marty

[Thaimint]

Yes, that's definitely him on both counts.

I think you must be right, other inaccuracies have surfaced in the info we have, and actually conflicting information is what led me to begin this endeavor in the first place.

I've tried to find a marriage record for Vincenzo & Maria in the Trabia microfilms, but don't seem them listed on any of the "Matrimoni e Pubblicazioni" indices for 1899, 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903, or 1904. Do you have any insight on where else I might look?

I see some marriage records sprinkled into "Allegati (vari) 1899-1905", is there a corresponding index?

They were supposedly married July 4th, 1900, in Palermo by "Father Anthony".

[Thaimint]

Oh, upon rereading my post, I realize I've been looking in Trabia, I didn't even think to try Palermo. I'll do that!

[fara]

birth records for cernobbio

[VotM]

Marcello, the birth record you found certainly sounds like it could be him, however it conflicts with the year (1883) printed on his death certificate. In your experience, is this a common inconsistency with 1st generations?

I'll chime in here. Information on a death certificate -- and especially an older death certificate -- is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.

In my family I've come across erroneous dates, towns of origin, and names of parents on death certificates. For the latter, in one extreme case a cousin had provided the names of her maternal grandparents for the parents' names on her father's death certificate.