Mysterious letter identifying moglie/marito

[mjclayton1]

Hello, Forum-

On certain Atti di Morit, I notice that, every once in a while, when referring to the decedent… then the parents… there is also then a reference to the decedent's spouse, e.g., "vedova di…". I understand that means "widow of", but, occasionally, instead of a full name there's a reference to a first name and then what looks like a very elegant looking "N", or perhaps a "V". What does this letter mean?

Invariably, the full name of the person is not included, hence, it must mean that the person's cognome was either missing or unknown... or unreported… to the civic official, etc. I thought perhaps that if it was an "N", it was a short for "Nessuni" - another term that you sometimes see when referring to time of death. Am doubtful it's this, but just trying to make an "educated" guess here.

Grazie in advance…

Mark

[adelfio]

Can we see a record?

Marty

[mjclayton1]

Hi, Marty-

See Numero 131 of the attached Atti di Morte for Maria Dinelli as an example:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=2043811

As to the Mother of the decedent ("dalla"), occasionally, you only get a first name and no cognome (or vice-versa). In this instance, neither first name nor last name is listed. Instead, you get this elegant-looking "V" (or is it an "N"?). What is this letter and what does it mean?

Again, thinking "logically" here (er… I use that term loosely), it appears to refer to the fact that the person is "unknown" or "unreported," etc. Thoughts?

Also, I understand that the "q." stands for quondam (Latin) - meaning "once", or "formerly". Does this term always imply death? As opposed to, say, divorce? Or is this always simply the maiden name of the mother? I'm guessing divorce was almost nonexistent in 19th-century Italy, but I also want to be sure that "once" is being used in the context of "deceased" here.

Any and all thoughts on this subject are appreciated.

Mark

[liviomoreno]

"dalla q(uondam) N.N."

N.N.=Non Nota=Unknown

The declarants did not know the name of the mother.

Quondam = deceased

[carubia]

Divorce was nonexistent in Italy in the 19th c. and most of the 20 c. (although there were annulments). Since women didn't change their surnames when they married, it wouldn't make sense to say someone was "formerly" such-and-such a name before a change in marital status.

[mjclayton1]

Thanks for that feedback, livio and carubia. I sort of suspected what you've both indicated here, but it's really nice to have confirmation of same. I know that I have a tendency to take some translations too literally...

I wonder if you could extend your talents a bit further in helping to identify a name in the attached Atti di Morti. A fellow collaborator of mine (he posts here as "genetick") and I both can't seem to identify the name of the widow (vediva) in the death record for Teresa Andreoni (Numero 235):

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=2043811

As genetick suggested, it looks like the cognome of the vedova is "di Romano". Do you agree with that conclusion? Seems like that's correct, but I have to addd that, personally, I've been looking at the Capannori records for many months now (as has genetick, for that matter) and I can't seem to recall coming across any such cognome, so this is really throwing me (casting doubt). What do you make of the name?

There appears to be one double "z" reference (looks very similar to the "z" in the phrase "detta sezione" - that section). Or maybe it's a double 'r" or even "s".

Also, what do those two lines with a small circle at the top (or bottom) mean? The name seems to be "contained" within these markings. Are they the English equivalent of quotation marks?

Again, many thanks to all. The breadth of knowledge here is simply fantastic...

Mark

[liviomoreno]

Teresa was the widow of Romano Massai (first marriage) and of Federigo Massai (second marriage)
The wording is "vedova in 1° nozze di Romano Massai"
The sign with a circle on top after the words Romano Massai shows that some text must be added after it. The text to be inserted is found on the last but one line, just above the signature, you will see a similar sign with a circle on top followed by the words "vedova in 2e nozze di Federigo Massai"

[mjclayton1]

Wow, that's super-interesting stuff, Livio, Thanks for that keen education - I really appreciate the assist. It's funny - for a quick moment I thought the "Massai" reference was somehow meant to be "massaia" (housewife), but I just knew that was wrong on more than one level (men, of course, weren't housewives…. and also they never seem to add the occupation of the deceased spouse).

Anyway, thanks again.

Mark