Ethnicity vs. skin tone

Genetic genealogy is the application of genetics to traditional genealogy. Genetic genealogy involves the use of genealogical DNA testing to determine the level and type of the genetic relationship between individuals.
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darkerhorse
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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Forget it, false alarm.
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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There was a sailor named Frank Morris born in Calabria c.1846-1850 whose route went to Liverpool. There's a signature on the crew list which I thought was his, so you could compare to your Frank Morris until I realized there's an X added to the signature denoting someone else signed for him, and he just added his mark.

Do your Italian matches have ancestry from Calabria?
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MarcuccioV
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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darkerhorse wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 02:21 There was a sailor named Frank Morris born in Calabria c.1846-1850 whose route went to Liverpool. There's a signature on the crew list which I thought was his, so you could compare to your Frank Morris until I realized there's an X added to the signature denoting someone else signed for him, and he just added his mark.

Do your Italian matches have ancestry from Calabria?
Not Calabria itself, but all around. Sicily, Apulia & Campania (as well as Abruzzo & Lazio).

Paper trail says he was born in 1842. In PA, but no birth records can be found (PA did not require births to be registered at that time).

Although it may not mean much, his first appearance on paper is an 1850 census. I believe there were 7 or 8 Morris children at that time. 4 of them were 1 year apart (4 siblings within 4 years). He was either # 2 or 3 of those (in the middle), the other siblings were several years apart.

So it seems possible that a couple of those children may have been adoptees (foundlings or orphans) brought into the family between biological children.

I have no proof, but it's just another scenario that MIGHT explain things -- and also, maybe not. At this stage it's all conjecture, but until all the pieces fall into place, I don't want to take any possibilities off the table...
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darkerhorse
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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I can't read his occupation on all the crew records but one is "steward". The ship was Flavian. I think the home port was Liverpool. One record has his birth as 1846 in Gallico (Calabria).
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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The surname Morace occurs in that town, including a Francesco Morace born in the 1840s who immigrated to the US. In Italian, Morace would be pronounced moore-ah-chay, but you can imagine Angloization to Morris.

I'm not suggesting he's your Frank Morris but it might give you some ideas for research.

Was your Frank known to be hard-headed?
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MarcuccioV
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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darkerhorse wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 15:00 The surname Morace occurs in that town, including a Francesco Morace born in the 1840s who immigrated to the US. In Italian, Morace would be pronounced moore-ah-chay, but you can imagine Angloization to Morris.

I'm not suggesting he's your Frank Morris but it might give you some ideas for research.

Was your Frank known to be hard-headed?
Morris was the family name and dates back a few generations further to the UK, I believe. So if he was an orphan or adoptee, he either had no known surname or it was simply changed to Morris. I can't even tell you for certain that Frank was his birth name. There is simply no information available prior to that 1850 census.

I suppose I'm fixated on him since his existence is shrouded in mystery while the other branches of the tree are more solidified, with longer paper trails (some to as far back as the 14th century) and DNA-match verified.

Just as an aside, in recent days there have been several new DNA matches tied to my paternal side with Italian ancestry. I do need to get on that, but I don't see having the time for it for a while. Maybe during the winter rainy season.

As far as being hard-headed, I can't speak for Frank but I certainly am (but I probably get that from BOTH sides) LOL... :roll: :wink:
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darkerhorse
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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A Sicilian would say it's more likely from the Calabrase side.

I would conclude then that your Morris is not the Morace family from Italy.

Your father's UK heritage suggests Iberian but, as I've mentioned before, based upon your father's appearance (coloring and features) I would suspect a wild card in his family tree to have Far Eastern, Middle Eastern, or New World ancestry before I would suspect Italian, Greek, or Iberian. But looks vary so much, you never now.

Do you see a resemblance of "type" with this person?
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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I have to at least defer to the science which does not find any Iberian, Asian or indigenous American. Only Italian, West Asian (middle eastern) & Med (Greek, etc). Otherwise it's UK or Northern, central & west Europe.

As for your photo, I recognize the face but can't place it. Based on features/coloring I'd guess Jewish diaspora, but whether Ashkenazi or Eastern European I can't say...
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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Was Frank Morris your father's great-grandfather?
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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darkerhorse wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 20:54 Was Frank Morris your father's great-grandfather?
YES. His maternal grandmother's father.
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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Then you'd expect he inherited about 12.5% from him, and, in turn, you would be expected to inherit about 6.25% from him.

If Frank was full-Italian then odds are your father would get 12.5% Italian from him, and you, 6.25%. If Frank was half-Italian, then it would be 6.25% and 3.125, respectively.

Isn't that about what you estimate your unaccounted for Italian ancestry is in you autosomal DNA - 3% to 6%?

Of course, it's unlikely that Frank was Italian if he was living with Isaac in the US in 1850.

Excluding Italian, are the ethnic percentages in your DNA about what you'd expect from your father's paper trail (UK, etc.)?

Is there anything in the paper trail or DNA to suggest born out-of-wedlock versus adopted?
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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darkerhorse wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 22:23 Then you'd expect he inherited about 12.5% from him, and, in turn, you would be expected to inherit about 6.25% from him.

If Frank was full-Italian then odds are your father would get 12.5% Italian from him, and you, 6.25%. If Frank was half-Italian, then it would be 6.25% and 3.125, respectively.

Isn't that about what you estimate your unaccounted for Italian ancestry is in you autosomal DNA - 3% to 6%?

Of course, it's unlikely that Frank was Italian if he was living with Isaac in the US in 1850.

Excluding Italian, are the ethnic percentages in your DNA about what you'd expect from your father's paper trail (UK, etc.)?

Is there anything in the paper trail or DNA to suggest born out-of-wedlock versus adopted?
I don't believe my father knew anything about him. I had never even heard his name mentioned. I found him through extensive research. Originally some family members had my GGm mis-appropriated to an incorrect Morris family out of Philadelphia.

I have many DNA matches through his wife, Anna Sarah Reichard. I have only ONE match to Frank, through his other daughter Pearl. The match is 2 gens removed from her, 3 from Frank. THAT match shows no Med ethnicity, but that wouldn't necessarily be surprising considering the gens removed and the random replication at each of those gens.

It's also through Ancestry which has a weak Italian/Med population matrix. So it really tells me nothing.

The percentages (if you use the simple mathematical equations and ignore random replication) are very close (in both cases) that you indicate.

There were early Italian immigrants (mostly artisans) in the US before that time. how many may have repatriated or perished & left children behind is up for speculation.

As far as other ethnicities, aside from UK/NW Eur/Germany/France (minor extent) & Italian/Sicilian, there is some disagreement in the matrices, but they include Greece, Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, Armenia, Lower Balkans, Cyprus, Tunisia & even Sardinia.

I suppose any of those COULD be appropriated to either side.

There is no evidence denying or supporting an out-of-wedlock birth. Entirely possible. Look at what I found on my maternal side that I would have never thought possible.

The other spoiler to throw into the mix is the possibility that some Germanic/French ancestry (which I have) COULD have come from my maternal grandmother as she had very Franco-Germanic features (yet with a light olive skin tone). So that COULD throw more Med to my father's side.
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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BTW, I recognize that face now. Arnold Stang. My favorite movie is "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World"...
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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Also, yes the other paternal percentages seem close, however they vary from matrix-to-matrix. Some show higher percentages of one thing over another, but the same general mixture. On average they align with the paper trail for the most part.

Nothing stands out aside from the Italian/Med, which by paper trail doesn't fit...
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Re: Ethnicity vs. skin tone

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So I got a new match today from MyHeritage. Shared matches are from my paternal side. Ethnicity includes 6% south Italian. Yet no Italian surnames in her tree. Here we go again...
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