New laws putting a generation limit?

[sceaminmonkey]

Mler, I am curious what your thoughts are. Do you think this will happen? if not soon eventually? you have probably watched the laws change over time. Do you think it is going to happen? I am still working on getting a court order and I am going through GGF. its scary to think that I might get cut off.

[NOLATom]

jennabet,

I disagree with you. Italy has the lowest birthrate in the EU and their population is on the decline. The young have left and villages have many houses that are empty. Empty houses equals towns that are dying. Towns that are dying equals a loss of the culture. Essentially Italy becomes one big museum. I am under 40 and my wife is under 30 and we can a bring a lot to a dying town. I made almost 300k last year and my wife is getting another masters in law right now, but will have a great earning potential once she gets back in the work pool. Luckily for us, we can work and live almost anywhere. So, would Italy rather our taxes and spending go to a town in America or Italy? Would they rather take an illegal immigrant from Tunisia who will be a strain on the country and has no Italian heritage and will have little incentive to integrate into Italian society or would they rather take a person who loves Italy and everything she has to give, but just happens to be a few generations removed? Dying country; do you take those in who want to make it little Tunisia, or little Ethiopia, or little whatever or do you take those in who have fond memories or her and want to preserve those customs and values?

[jennabet]

I must disagree with you totally about African immigrants not being able to integrate into Italian society. Italian women are marrying Tunisian immigrants and other African immigrants and they are assimilating nicely. Tunisians second language is French so Italian is not difficult for them to learn. In fact, most of the African immigrants in Italy are from Senegal, Ivory Coast, Cameroon. These are all countries where the second language is French as opposed to countries like Nigeria and Kenya where the second language is English. You may ask why Italian women are marrying African men? Well, it's because when some modern Italian women work full time jobs outside the home, if married to an Italian man, they are still expected to fully take care of the house, kids, etc., while the Italian man thinks he still deserves to be pampered. Italian women work 80 minutes a day longer than the men. In my opinion, the fault of the low birth rate belongs to the Italian males because they can't seem to drop their macho attitudes and the modern women don't want to marry them.

[kontessa]

I think a generational limit should and will be added setting it up so that a descendant cannot apply through a great-grandparent. Reason being is that the third generation are likely to be people still young enough to be in the work force and there already are not enough jobs in Italy for people of that age who were born in Italy and have always lived there and Italian citizens would not be interested in paying taxes to support even more citizens of that age who have become a burden on the state because they can't find a job. In nearly all first generation cases, the applicants are retired or near retirement and don't need jobs as they guaranteed income from other sources and are not likely to become a burden on the state. Many second generation are also in that category or approaching that category. Italy has to do what's right for Italy. The third generation can always apply in the future after the second generation has been recognized.

This thought process brings up another point to consider - how many individuals will ever move to Italy after having their citizenship recognized? Or their children, for that matter? I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with the theory presented, btw, just pointing out another element that may come into play.

[kontessa]

That second link from the pages that Carmine posted (which are great to search through, btw! )

http://eudo-citizenship.eu/country-prof ... ntry=Italy

If you go down the page, you can find 'Citizenship news' and 'Links'...there are a number of additional websites to search for news and information. Maybe the government IS preparing to make some changes, but like mler, I couldn't find anything that would have an affect on jure sanguinis applicants.

[johnnyonthespot]

Italian citizenship is transmitted by blood. Period. No matter how "old" that blood may be. I don't think anything short of a constitutional ammendment can change this fact, and I don't see that coming anytime soon. Now, other forms of citizenship - primarily naturalization - well, that is an entirely different matter and always subject to change, probably by legislative fiat.

Personally - although I would not be happy about it - I would have expected pressure to bear, not to change the recognition of citizenship, but rather the rights granted to "new" citizens. For example, is it really fair for dual citizens to retire to Italy and get instant and full access to nationalised healthcare, having never paid a dime in taxes into the system? Is it really fair that I can go to Italy with no income or assets and be entitled to a minimal (barely subsistence level) public pension, having never paid a dime in taxes? Is it fair that I can call on my Italian consulate, no matter where I may be, for assistance, having never paid... you get the idea.

We "new" citizens have all the rights of persons born in Italy of multi-generation Italy-born ancestors. Taxpaying citizens. Berlusconi-enduring citizens. Pension rights. Healthcare rights. Education benefits. Rights and benefits that extend across the entire European Union.

It would not surprise me to see these rights tested and/or modified as time passes, especially during an extended economic downturn as we are in now. However, I do not know if Italy's constitution would permit different "classes" of citizenship and so, once again, I think any significant change is unlikely.

So far as dual citizens showing up in Italy and taking jobs away from "real" Italians, they don't have to worry about that too much; from everything I have read, it is virtually impossible to get any form of meaningful employment in Italy without first being fluent in the italian langauge. Something which, despite Rosetta Stone's claims to the contrary, takes years of full immersion living for most people who are not already fluent in another of the romance languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_language)

[jennabet]

In many cases, first and second generation candidates have closer connections to Italy. They still have family members in Italy with whom they are personally acquainted because the family bonds have never been broken despite the distances between them. This is especially true for Italians that have citizenship with other Latin countries. More so than Americans, they have maintained their family bonds. Italy is a familiar culture. Family bonds are TIGHT.

Italy has a Constitution and it would take an amendment to change rights for "new" citizens as opposed to the rights of "original" citizens. This will never happen. What should change and may change is a generational limit on recognition. True, a generation that is further removed from familiar bonds and still needs to be in the workplace isn't likely to take jobs from Italians because there arn't enough jobs as is but these candidates would still have the right to live off the Italian state and Italians can no longer afford to keep them. Likewise, other EU member states don't want them taking jobs away from their citizens either. Do you get the point here? This would be as bad for them as sending US jobs to India was for Americans.

First and second generation retirees do not cost Italian taxpayers money. Yes, they are given free healthcare but the money they spend in the Italian economy offsets it. Regarding pensions. Very few newly recognized retirees show up and start drawing an Italian pension. This is a BIG myth. You get a pension if you don't have any other means of support. If you have a US pension or Social Security, savings or other assets like owned property, you don't qualify for an Italian pension, which is basically a form of welfare if you have never worked in Italy.

It's much more likely that a newly recognized wage earner who does not speak Italian and cannot find a job would end up on Welfare in Italy than a newly recognized retiree who doesn't speak Italian but does have a guaranteed source of income.

[rgaetano]

To me, it seems much more likely that a newly recognized citizen (any generation) who cannot speak Italian (any generation) will not establish residence in Italy and therefore will not drain the social resources and jobs. If anything, they will probably just enjoy the ease of travel to Italy, visit more frequently, stay longer, and thus spend more money in Italy when they visit. I find it hard to believe that there will be a mass exodus of 3rd generation, newly recognized Italian citizens that leave the US only to be unemployed in Italy and end up draining on the social services (if they can't speak Italian how would they fill out any of the paper work?)

[jennabet]

.....For example, is it really fair for dual citizens to retire to Italy and get instant and full access to nationalised healthcare, having never paid a dime in taxes into the system?.....

This always amuses me. Americans just can't seem to shake the opinion that healthcare should cost Italian taxpayers billions of dollars a year like it does in the USA. Italy is NOT Pharmageddon! Don't even think that you're going to take all 25 of your prescription meds over there and the Italian doc (who doesn't even get a co-pay) is going to refill them all. He's going to give you one or two that are medically NECESSARY. And that's it. And if you can't live without nauseating Pill commercials, you're not going to like Italian TV.

Healthcare is a basic right in a civil society. All legal residents of the EU, citizens or not, have free healthcare. That's the way socialized medicine is. Anybody who is against it should not live in a country that offers it, which is most of the world, btw.

[ForzaItaliaPgh]

When I started this process last summer there was some scattered talk about something like this. I was told at the time that if a change was made anyone with an appointment would remain eligible.

[sforza]

Would they rather take an illegal immigrant from Tunisia who will be a strain on the country and has no Italian heritage and will have little incentive to integrate into Italian society or would they rather take a person who loves Italy and everything she has to give, but just happens to be a few generations removed? Dying country; do you take those in who want to make it little Tunisia, or little Ethiopia, or little whatever or do you take those in who have fond memories or her and want to preserve those customs and values?

For thousands of years Italy has been a crossroads of north african, Greek, middle eastern and, later, northern European cultures. No one race has a claim to Italy. And many things now viewed as iconically Italian - like the tomato - did not originate in Italy. Likewise, if I am lucky enough to be granted jus sanguinis, I look forward to joining a diverse community of Italians - whether they be from Ethiopia, Tunisia, Cote d'Ivoire or the North Pole. And, speaking of "little whatever," if it wasn't for all the "Little Italys" in the US, many US citizens of Italian decent would have no access to the Italian identity we are all striving to express and validate on this message board.

[NOLATom]

It appears we have lived different lives. I have traveled a lot and I lived in cities all across america, big and small. What I have seen in my life and travels makes me disagree with you. Recently the Chancellor of Germany stated that “multiculturalism has utterly failed” and the French President stated “we have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him” and that multiculturalism has failed. But what do they know, right? Here’s what I know. I grew up in one of the most diverse cities in America. It has a storied history and has many names, but it is most known for it’s food and HOSPITALITY. I emphasize hospitality because it has changed drastically in the last few years. I fly in and out of this city regularly and the last few times, last 4 times to be exact, I have had immigrant taxi drivers drive me home. The days of getting in a cab and having a good conversation with someone is over. If you were picked up by a native of the city, whether black or white, you could expect a good conversation on your trip home. Now, they drive and only drive and don’t ask to turn the heater on when it is 20 degrees outside on a particular late night arrival when you have no jacket with you, because they won’t. They tell me no, it will burn too much gas. Really? I have always tipped generously in my travels because I know so many people don’t, and my tip would have covered the supposed extra gas for the heater and his meals for the next day. Instead, shaking, I gave him five bucks and I almost didn’t give him that. Two weeks later, the same damn thing happened again, only this time I remembered my jacket. But it was a different car and a different driver, but with the same problem. Now forget about the African immigrant taxi drivers for a minute. My daughter goes to a foreign language school in this same city. The majority of the children’s parents there are not native to the city. They too have settled there in the last few years. They however, are not like the cab divers and maybe living pay check to pay check, they are affluent, yet they have no hospitality either. I have seen it at events in which they have invited me to. So, the culture of the city is being lost, slowly but surely. It didn’t matter whether you were rich or poor or black or white in this city, if you were a native of this city, you always knew you would find cordial people, great conversation and people around you, even strangers, who would share whatever they had, no matter how little. I have lived in cities like New York and Chicago and I can tell you, people on the street are not hospitable. I think I have helped more tourist with directions in the the years I was there than most native people of the city have done in the course of their life. There are many examples in America to show what happens when immigrants flood into established societies (we’re not talking about newly settled lands here). Take Lewiston, ME for example or Manchester New Hampshire when it was designated at a national immigration re-settlement city. It changed them.

Sometimes change is good and sometimes, it’s not, but If I understand you correctly, you rather let Venice be rid of those pesky venetians and replace them with another ethnic group and another culture. I’m sorry, but I disagree with you on that. I like my Tronchon cheese from Spain and I don’t want to see the little town replaced with another culture or another cheese.

Yes, one can make the argument that we all originated from one place, but today there are many distinct cultures around the world and I have found one that I want to live my life in, but if I brought over 12,000 of my illegal buddies with me on a boat, then it is likely we will not assimilate into society, but rather, bring our own society with us.

Ideally, it will one day be a mute argument, because we are truly destroying this planet with each new chemical we invent and each new piece of trash that finds it’s way to the ocean, etc., etc.

[kontessa]

.....For example, is it really fair for dual citizens to retire to Italy and get instant and full access to nationalised healthcare, having never paid a dime in taxes into the system?.....

This always amuses me. Americans just can't seem to shake the opinion that healthcare should cost Italian taxpayers billions of dollars a year like it does in the USA.

To be fair, where in that quote did the poster mention the cost of healthcare in Italy? I believe that his question was referring to the access to a benefit (healthcare) while never having contributed to the system (by paying the taxes which support it). To be fair, it was posed as a question, not an opinion. Poster can speak for himself, of course.

All legal residents of the EU, citizens or not, have free healthcare.

Sorry, but non EU-citizens that are legal residents of the EU are NOT always entitled to free healthcare. An American without Italian citizenship that wishes to live legally in Italy with an elective residency visa, must show proof of insurance in order to obtain a permit to stay (PdiS). I also believe that a citizen of the UK who has never lived in Italy but wishes to move there and reside there legally must show proof of insurance to obtain a permit to stay (carta di soggiorno?). Best to double check the requirements first. Disclaimer: I don't know if there is a set period of time that one must continue to show proof of insurance to renew the permits to stay, or when (if possible) they can then sign on to the national plan in Italy. Also, they MAY be able to receive free emergency care, but this varies by region.

[jennabet]

.....Jennabet wrote: All legal residents of the EU, citizens or not, have free healthcare......

Please note the words "legal residents" in the above quote. We are retired and looked into the Elective Residency Visa but won't be needing it. Proof of health insurance is only required to get the Visa approved. Upon registration with the comune, once you have a LEGAL address in Italy, you have authorization to go to Tessa Sanitaria and select your primary physician. At this point, you are registered with national healthcare and have the same benefits as all citizens and other LEGAL residents. If you arrive in Italy and apply for residence the next day, you can be on the healthcare role as soon as one month from arrival, depending on how fast your comune processes your address and sends out the police to your residence. This is a forum about citizenship. Why beat the non-citizen, non-LEGAL resident topic to death? Furthermore, I don't see the need for you to explain what Johnnyonthespot was referring to, as he can do that himself if he so chooses.

[lorene]

I just got that info too. I can forward it to you.
I thought that if my grandparents on both sides were born in Italy I would qualify.
Now it seems that they could not have given up their naturalization and or a parent must be born here, but, etc....
I'm a bit confused. ANd bummed because I thought I could apply this year.
I will try to cut and paste or post link with info, very shhort and to the point.
Lorene