Dual citizenship-proof of reaquisition of Italian citizenship

[mler]

Why on earth would a comune have to check with a consulate? It's the other way around.

The comune knows she was married and is living in London. That's why the comune has her registered as an Italian citizen living abroad. Take particular note of the Italian citizen part. All they need do is add that note to her birth certificate.

Again, even if they choose not to do so, it doesn't matter. The courts have ruled so many times in favor of the petitioner in cases like these, the ultimate result will be the same--citizenship.

It seems that both the London consulate and Puglia are aware that this is a successful court case in the making and are trying to avoid that through the comune.

[jennabet]

Why should they add that note to her birth certificate? She married a British man in 1947 and lost her Italian citizenship!

[mler]

Did she naturalize? No. Did she renounce her citizenship at the consulate? No.

Since she did neither, she did NOT lose Italian citizenship. She simply obtained British citizenship automatically, and, if you've been paying attention, the Italian courts have ruled that obtaining a citizenship automatically through marriage does NOT result in the loss of Italian citizenship. It's really that simple.

[NextMove]

jennabet I think you may have missed where I wrote

"I know that Mum came over to Italy in the 1980's to reaquire her Italian citizenship. She lived in Trieste. I have a copy of a questura. I have read that she either had to make a declaration or live in Italy for a year."

And that is allegedly, what you need to do to reaquire your citizenship - reside for a year, or make a declaration.

So yes she did actually make an effort to reaquire her Italian citizenship which was taken away without her knowledge. Do you think she had a visit from some official the day before she got married telling her that if she went ahead she would lose her Italian citizenship? As much as she loved my dad she may have baulked at that!!

Also if it had been my dad who had been Italian he wouldn't have lost his citizenship!!

And just to make it crystal clear that I haven't lied anywhere along this procedure, when I wrote to the comune yesterday, that because my mother had dementia I was doing this for her as much as for me - to set the record right for her, me and the rest of my family.

My mum hasn't done anything wrong in all this, the mistake was made by the bureaucrat who should have put the annotation/addendum on her birth certificate.

[mler]

NextMove, your mom did everything she was supposed to do, and fortunately, today the courts recognize that she never even needed to take that reacquisition step since she never naturalized to obtain another citizenship. In reality, though, the procedure you describe to reacquire citizenship is a fairly recent one. The process was different in the 1980's. But, again, your mom never lost her citizenship; therefore, reacquisition was not necessary.

I know you prefer not to go the court route, and I think there is a good chance that the comune will honor your request, and the courts can be avoided. But be comforted by the fact that, should it be necessary, you have a very workable option.

Her comune has continued to treat her as an Italian citizen, and with her passport, certificate of citizenship, and her current citizenship registration at her comune, your chances are good. As more and more people apply for citizenship in Italy, the comuni are becoming more cognizant of citizenship law, which should put you in a good position.

Hang in there.

[jennabet]

Did she naturalize? No. Did she renounce her citizenship at the consulate? No.

Since she did neither, she did NOT lose Italian citizenship. She simply obtained British citizenship automatically, and, if you've been paying attention, the Italian courts have ruled that obtaining a citizenship automatically through marriage does NOT result in the loss of Italian citizenship. It's really that simple.

And in case YOU haven't noticed, the Italian consulates and communes don't do the work of the courts! You want a court? Then get in line!

[mler]

LOL. But you see, jennebet, the comune has already acknowledged her citizenship in its records, so there may be no need for a court case. That's the whole point.

[jennabet]

.......and the descendant has already been denied by a consulate and a commune in Perugia so it really doesn't matter that another commune may have the mother listed in error as a citizen, does it?

[mler]

My goodness, jennebet, why do you try so hard to find ways to deny people the citizenship to which they are entitled? Just a few posts earlier, you were stating that the mother definitely lost her citizenship because she married a British citizen and that, since she reacquired when NextMove was an adult, he/she is out of luck. Now you insist that if his mom's home comune has her recorded as a citizen, it doesn't matter.

Let me explain why it matters:

1. The comune in Puglia did not deny the petition. It simple asked that an addendum be made to the birth certificate.
2. The comune that needs to make the addendum already has her listed as an Italian citizen.
3. The comune that needs to make the addendum has her citizenship status listed correctly.

We should also not ignore the fact that Italy has awarded her a war pension, to which only Italian citizens are entitled, so Italy has already acknowledged her citizenship.

Now, if it makes you feel better, I will add that it's possible that the birth comune refuses to comply. It's also possible that they add that information.

Again, it's really that simple.

[mler]

NextMove, it seems to me that this is a classic case of "passing the buck." Italian citizenship laws are complicated, and I think Puglia wants to avoid making an error. By requesting an addendum to your mom's birth record, they pass the decision to her comune.

You have a lot of documentation that supports her citizenship status (definitely include the war pension information since that is a clear indication that Italy acknowledges her citizenship). Then, keep your fingers crossed.

Best of luck.

[NextMove]

When I visited the Consulate in London, they sent me away to find proof. The frustrating thing is that they didnt tell me what proof I needed, just gave me two links to British registration archives. Obviously they turned up blank.
The lady at the comune sent me away saying they couldn't go any further as the annotation had not been made on the birth certificate. Again she didnt give any advice.
In the UK you dont get annotations added to your birth certificate, so how on earth was I to know I had to go down that road!
I must say, I have learned a lot!

[jennabet]

NextMove, the consulate gave you the correct information and so did the commune. If your mother really is an Italian citizen, the commune up North where your mother is listed in error as an Italian citizen would communicate that information to the commune in Perugia. So at this point, you are at a dead end unless you contact an attorney. There is nothing you can do to force any consulate or any commune in Italy to process your citizenship based on the information you have received from mler. Interestingly enough, mler frequently gives advice on how she "thinks" the Italian government should respond and it is a rare occasion, indeed, that a respondent of her advice actually comes back into this forum and confirms that she was right. Apparently she is just one of those people who insists on being right at all costs. I hope things get worked out to your satisfaction.

[carubia]

"I know that Mum came over to Italy in the 1980's to reaquire her Italian citizenship. She lived in Trieste. I have a copy of a questura. I have read that she either had to make a declaration or live in Italy for a year."

And that is allegedly, what you need to do to reaquire your citizenship - reside for a year, or make a declaration.

So yes she did actually make an effort to reaquire her Italian citizenship which was taken away without her knowledge.

In the 1980s the law (dating back to 1912) still required 2 years residence without a declaration, and I think 1 year with a declaration. How long did she live in Italy then? Did she make such a declaration?

If she was making steps to reacquire her citizenship, that would imply that she knew she had lost it.

[mler]

You're right, Carubia, she may well have believed she lost it, but because she acquired citizenship automatically through marriage and not through her own naturalization, she remained an Italian citizen.

Jennebet was correct in her assertion that any reacquisition would not have affected her adult children. Since Italian courts have affirmed that citizenship acquired automatically through marriage does not cause the loss of Italian citizenship, the focus should remain on her continuing status as an Italian citizen rather than reacquisition.

Jennebet, your reading comprehension is severely limited. What does Perugia (Perugia is not in Puglia) have to do with any of this? Considering the fact that you continually post inaccurate information (Cable Act only applied to women born in the US was one of my favorites) and were banned from another forum for just that reason, you really should back off when you are again wrong.

Read more carefully, jennebet. I have stated repeatedly on this thread that the mother remained an Italian citizen since she never naturalized, and at least one comune (as well as the Italian pension system) recognizes that. The proper approach is to communicate that information in the manner that is required.

NextMove will not be submitting any information obtained from me (as you erroneously suggested). He/she would be submitting information obtained from an Italian comune and the Italian government. If, based on this information, the comune is unwilling to comply, (no one is exerting force; this is a simple request) a lawsuit is the next step. But why should anyone initiate a lawsuit when there is a good possibility that the issue can be resolved without one?

By the way, earlier in this thread you stated, "You are not Italian because your mother was not Italian when you were born." I'm glad you finally acknowledge your error, or do you? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

[mler]

Jennebet, I really don't want to fight with you. The purpose of this forum is to help those who need it, and to share the information we have. None of us are experts, but it behooves us to correct inaccurate information when it is presented as fact. That's how we help each other.

I really think you should reread this thread, because I have in no way suggested ways to deceive the Italian government. And, just to clarify, my grandmother was Italian even though she was born in the US, and the Cable Act affected ALL women.

It's interesting that you reported my post, since you are only the one who resorted to childish name calling.