New laws putting a generation limit?

[lorene]

Oh boy...I do not know where or even how start the process.
I want to apply for citizenship. I am second generation. Both maternal and paternal granparents were born in Italy.
Both birth parents born in USA. All now deceased.
Where do I begin the process? What papers do I need?
Grazie,
Lorene

[mler]

This is a forum about citizenship. Why beat the non-citizen, non-LEGAL resident topic to death? Furthermore, I don't see the need for you to explain what Johnnyonthespot was referring to, as he can do that himself if he so chooses.

Some posters may not have dual citizenship, may not be eligible for dual citizenship or have not yet completed the application process. Since they too can legally reside in Italy, this information is relevant.

Misunderstandings are common in forums since the written word is sometimes ambiguous. I have never objected to a poster clarifying one of my own posts if it appears that what I've written has been misinterpreted, and I think that most posters here feel the same way.

[johnnyonthespot]

Oh boy...I do not know where or even how start the process.
I want to apply for citizenship. I am second generation. Both maternal and paternal granparents were born in Italy.
Both birth parents born in USA. All now deceased.
Where do I begin the process? What papers do I need?
Grazie,
Lorene

Lorene, this is probably not the best thread in which to get these questions answered.

Please begin a new thread and tell us about the specifics of your case.



As to the other matter...

Perhaps some of you have noticed that I have a real tendency to avoid threads which have taken a turn for the worse. I do this because I have learned to keep the monster within firmly locked within its cage; if I should make the mistake of letting it out, you will find that I can become quite overbearing, argumentative, and generally not nice.

Having said that, I think kontessa expressed my view accurately - I was merely saying that on some level, I feel badly about being able to take advantage of so many of the generosities of Italian government (and thus the Italian people) having never paid a dime towards their cost, and I would not be surprised to see that steps may one day be taken to try to limit said benefits.

[DeFilippis78]

Carmine, Jennabet seems to turn argumentative in every post...just sayin.Keyboard commandoes annoy me thoroughly and I WILL say so.

[jennabet]

I've never been one who goes along to get along and I'm more than entitled to my opinion. I do find it rather sad, however, that no one can support me in my opinion that it would not be a good idea or a very caring idea to try and coerce an elderly living ancestor into signing something she's not interested in signing but instead considers this opinion to be argumentative. Again very sad.

[jennabet]

.....Having said that, I think kontessa expressed my view accurately - I was merely saying that on some level, I feel badly about being able to take advantage of so many of the generosities of Italian government (and thus the Italian people) having never paid a dime towards their cost, and I would not be surprised to see that steps may one day be taken to try to limit said benefits.Carmine.....

Carmine, if you don't have any plans of ever living in Italy, why did you take an appointment with a consulate to submit your documents? The fact that you did so could have put somebody else who IS moving to Italy at the back of the line. And the same goes for DeFilippis. She has said she is not moving to Italy and she wasn't even prepared for the appointment but she didn't hesitate to get in line in front of somebody who might be moving to Italy.

As far as taking advantage of the generosity of the Italian people, do you think that all the advice given by experts such as yourself on how to contact comunes all over Italy and have them send out documents and do other research might be costly to the Italian people, especially when nobody who receives these documents is moving to Italy to contribute to the economy? Who do you think pays the salaries of the state workers in Italy? With all the demand being put on them by people who think they should have an Italian passport just for posterity's sake, it's costing the taxpayers more and more each year.

[jennabet]

By the way, all the demand being put on them by people who think they should have an Italian passport just for posterity's sake is the most likely reason we will soon see a generational limit.

[mler]

There are very good reasons why someone may choose to apply for Italian citizenship even if he/she chooses not to live in Italy. Perhaps the most important reason is that the recognition of citizenship is obtained not only for the applicant but also for his/her children, grandchildren, and all future generations. Who knows what the future may bring. The applicant may never live in Italy, but perhaps his children will go to school there, retire there, etc.

In any case, no one's reason for applying is any more valid than another's reason, and it's not necessarily true that everyone who moves to Italy is contributing to the economy. Some retirees may live there and spend their retirement income there, but at the same time they benefit from a liberal social and medical service network that can be quite costly particularly for the elderly.

Perhaps it's best to agree that everyone's reason for applying may be different, but that doesn't mean that they are not equally valid.

[johnnyonthespot]

Carmine, if you don't have any plans of ever living in Italy, why did you take an appointment with a consulate to submit your documents? The fact that you did so could have put somebody else who IS moving to Italy at the back of the line.

Now, now... when did I say I don't plan to ever live in Italy? In point of fact, my wife and I are making plans to do just that almost as we speak. And, if it were solely up to me, we would be there already.

As far as taking advantage of the generosity of the Italian people, do you think that all the advice given by experts such as yourself on how to contact comunes all over Italy and have them send out documents and do other research might be costly to the Italian people, especially when nobody who receives these documents is moving to Italy to contribute to the economy? Who do you think pays the salaries of the state workers in Italy? With all the demand being put on them by people who think they should have an Italian passport just for posterity's sake, it's costing the taxpayers more and more each year.

This is the law of the land, not my law. These people are entitled to claim recognition of their Italian citizenship if they choose to do so, whether they plan to eventually move to Italy/EU or not. And, to make that claim, they need certain documents. It is not by my decision that comuni do not charge for these documents; in fact, it is Italian law that requires they do not charge beyond the cost of postage and as we know most do not even do that. I would have no problem with paying a reasonable fee per document, just as I have to do when requesting similar documents in the US. I think most of our readers would feel the same - for the thousand or so dollars that the average jure sanguinis applicant spends putting together his/her case, the small extra cost of one or two Italian documents would be a minor detail.

I (personally) would also have been okay with having to pay a reasonable fee to file my application with the consulate. As you no doubt know, there has been a €200 fee, to be paid in advance, for jure matrimonio citizenship cases as well as others, for some time now (around 18-24 months?). No one was more surprised than I when the Italian government did not extend this fee to jure sanguinis applicants as well.

And this has been my point all along: I did not say that the Italian government should not make changes in the costs charged to nor benefits granted to "new" citizens. Just the opposite: I said (and I quote), "Personally - although I would not be happy about it - I would have expected pressure to bear, not to change the recognition of citizenship, but rather the rights granted to "new" citizens."

[johnnyonthespot]

By the way, all the demand being put on them by people who think they should have an Italian passport just for posterity's sake is the most likely reason we will soon see a generational limit.

As a practical matter, it would almost certainly be easier to adjust the costs borne by "new" citizens and/or the benefits accorded to them, then to impose a generational limit.

[mler]

There are many aspects of Italian citizenship law that are extremely generous; other aspects, such as the position of women before 1948, can be considered discriminatory. I don't think that there is any disagreement that, on the whole, Italian citizenship law is quite liberal, although there may be many differences of opinion on whether the law should be modified, whether fees should be imposed on jure sanguinis applicants, etc.

As far as we have been able to ascertain, the Italian government has yet to take steps to establish a generational limit for eligibility, and until such time, anyone who is eligible is welcome to apply. Maybe the law will change at some later date, but who can even begin to guess the direction of any such changes. My crystal ball is telling me nothing.

[johnnyonthespot]

I would add that jennabet's concern that "we will soon see a generational limit" is likely to bring about exactly that which she is most concerned about.

What better reason for millions of otherwise sane people of Italian descent to come out of the back rooms and impose huge demands on comuni and consulates the world over, then the possibility of impending generational limits?

[jennabet]

I'm glad you and your wife are planning to move to Italy, Carmine. It's the best place to retire. I would even go so far as to say that Italian-Americans who were raised in the Italian tradition will not miss life the USA.

[lorene]

Ok, got it, get it. Will start new thread. ciao!