Court order to get 1893 naturalization record from county?

[longabardi.hasbrouck]

Has anyone ever heard of having to get a court order for a copy of a naturalization record?
My local county clerk office does have a record of my ancestor's naturalization. They could tell me everything over the phone, including the date he naturalized, but they said I would need to get a court order to get a certified copy of it!?

It's $150 for the court order and who knows how much for my lawyer's time.

This just seems absurd. They told me naturalization records were not public information in Michigan. But why then could they tell me all the information on it in the book?

They also told me to go to USCIS, but I thought USCIS only has records from 1906 on up?

Thanks

[TriciaFierro]

That is very strange. Here is PA I am lucky enough to still live in the county where many of my ancestors immigrated to and I just went to the courthouse where the staff (one person staff, actually!0 was very helpful. They pulled the volumes for me, found the pages and the only thing that I apid for was $.50 a copy for copies of the pages.

It seems odd considering the strigent privacy laws today that they could give info over the phone but not in person. Now I was told that if I wanted to actual naturalization originals that they are pricey and I would need to send away for them, but what I have is a copy of the original which is all I needed.

- Tricia

[johnnyonthespot]

They also told me to go to USCIS, but I thought USCIS only has records from 1906 on up?

Thanks

From http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD

Records available through the USCIS Genealogy Program:

Naturalization Certificate Files (C-files) from September 27, 1906 to April 1, 1956

I'm looking at the other part of your question - Michigan's refusal to release documents. However, let me throw out a warning:

Some consulates, San Francisco, New York, and - if I recall correctly - Chicago, enforce an interpretation of the Italian citizenship law of 1912 - LEGGE 13 GIUGNO 1912, N.555. These consulates have determined that an Italian citizen who naturalized in another country prior to July 1, 1912, lost his own Italian citiznship, as well as that of his Italy-born children and also of his US-born children.

My impression is that all consulates are beginning to enforce this rule; that being the case, it may be a good idea for you to investigate your own consulate's take on this issue before investing to much money in your quest.

[johnnyonthespot]

Regarding the "1912 Rule", the Chicago consulate puts it this way:

The most common ways to obtain Italian Citizenship:

- jure sanguinis (blood right) – acquisition of Italian citizenship through birth from an Italian mother or father, regardless the place of birth. This right applies to the child born of a legal union or natural one and is also valid for minor children who are adopted. There is no status of limitation regarding the recognition of Italian citizenship through birth and it is possible to request Italian citizenship if:

a) the Italian ancestor was alive on March 17, 1861 and maintained the Italian citizenship within June 30, 1912;
...

http://www.conschicago.esteri.it/Consol ... tadinanza/

San Francisco says:

ANCESTORS NATURALIZED BEFORE JUNE 14, 1912 CANNOT TRANSMIT CITIZENSHIP (EVEN TO CHILDREN BORN BEFORE THEIR NATURALIZATION)

http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/N ... ZIONI1.doc

[Note: the law was passed on June 13, 1912 with an effective date of July 1, 1912. San Francisco seems to be confused regarding the exact effective date.]

[lowlight]

that sounds oddly familiar, my relative also resided in Michigan. As for obtaining those records I would, ask to speak to someone else, also try calling archives of Michigan, (they are another repository for these types of records for many counties).
http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-14 ... --,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-14 ... --,00.html

LL

[longabardi.hasbrouck]

So I ended up getting this record after all. I had to argue with the head clerk for Jackson county. After I showed her this page:
http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164 ... --,00.html

on my laptop, she was finally convinced she had to legally give me the document. Because of me, she said they would be changing their policies!

Great success.

[uwlaw]

My impression is that all consulates are beginning to enforce this rule; that being the case, it may be a good idea for you to investigate your own consulate's take on this issue before investing to much money in your quest.

In a sense, it's not surprising that all consulates are beginning to enforce the "1912 Rule", providing that if an Italian father lost citizenship prior to 1 July 1912, his minor children (under 21) also lost their citizenship at the same time. This has actually been Italian government's policy for a few years, as is reflected in "La Cittadinanza Italiana" published by the Ministero dell'Interno:

In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.

Note that this position is, unfortunately for those involved, arguably consistent with Italian law. The Civil Code of 1865, which was in effect prior to enactment of the 1912 Italian Citizenship law, expressly provided that if a father lost his Italian citizenship by acquiring a foreign citizenship, his minor children also automatically lost their Italian citizenship at the same time unless they resided in Italy:

Article 11. La cittadinanza si perde:
…
2. Da colui che abbia ottenuto la cittadinanza in paese estero;
…
La madre ei figli di colui che ha perduto la cittadinanza, divengono stranieri, salvo che abbiano continuato a tenere la loro residenza nel regno.

As with a person who lost their citizenship under the 1912 Law, children who lost their citizenship under the 1865 Law could reclaim it by moving to Italy. Note also that under the 1865 Law, if a child was born in Italy to a father who had lost his citizenship prior to the birth, the child was in fact considered an Italian citizen (which is somewhat more liberal than both the 1912 Law and the current law).