Latin Translation request

[rp76226]

I thought the groom's mother's name in this 1717 church marriage record when translated to Italian from Latin was Giovanna Pagliarello. Another source outside of this forum today says her first name is Santa and that Pagliarello is not her last name but a middle name. Yet, FamilySearch has a lot of Pagliarello last names. It's obvious in this marriage record that both the maiden name and husband's surname are being used for the names of the mothers of the bride and groom. Please tell me the correct Italian name of the groom's mother's name on this record:

http://postimg.org/image/iv5s3ewo1/

Ron

[Italysearcher]

Many old parish records do not list the grooms (or bride's) mother's name at all. It looks to me like is says, Giovanna di (daughter of) Santo Pagliarelli. Hard to tell with only a portion of the record shown.

[erudita74]

I see living Santa di Puma Pagliarello for the groom's mother

Erudita

[rp76226]

Ann, isn't Giovanna the groom's mother, not the bride's mother? If yes, it would be unlikely that her father "Santo", the grandfather of the groom, would be listed on a marriage record.

[rp76226]

Erudita - do you think that both Puma and Pagliarello are the bride's actual maiden name or just one of those names? If one, which one? It seems that the bride's mother is listed with both her husband's surname (Longo) and her maiden surname (Ficcavilla or Ficastilla).

[erudita74]

Let's take a step back. The groom is Giovanni di Puma Pagliarello. (double surname in the town). I have never been able to decipher his father's first name, but he was deceased, but it is understood that the father's surname is the double surname "di Puma Pagliarello." The mother who was living was Santa (it looks to me like that there was an extra letter written in her first name, which the priest or his clerk inked out). She also has the double surname di Puma Pagliarello. So it may just have been possible that the groom's parents were related to each other on some generation level-cousins to some degree. The bride's first name is Rosa and her mother was a Stefana. I still haven't been able to decipher what the second surname is after her married surname. I can't find any surnames with the spellings you suggested, etc.

Ron

Have you tried uploading the document to the website below? There is at least one person there who is very good with Latin documents. I'd also be interested in that individual's take on the groom's father's first name.

http://www.tuttogenealogia.it/


Erudita

[Lucap]

Giovanni di Puma Pagliarello figlio legittimo e naturale del fu Francesco e della vivente Santa già coniugi di questa terra di Racalmuto(?)
e
Rosa Lo Longo ... Stella, nubile, figlia legittima e naturale del fu Giacomo e della vivente Stefana Lo Longo Fiacca Stella già coniugi di questa predetta terra

La storia del doppio cognome mi sembra strana, visto che riguarda entrambi i nubendi: a mio avviso potrebbe essere stata usanza del posto (o del prete) indicare sia il cognome del padre che della madre uno di seguito all'altro, altrimenti non credo possibile che le due coppie di genitori potessero avere il doppio cognome (e ancora più improbabile ritengo l'ipotesi che avessero lo stesso cognome sia il padre che la madre, cioè Di Puma Pagliarello sia il padre che la madre dello sposo e Lo Longo Fiacca Stella sia il padre che la madre della sposa!)

[Lucap]

P.S.
Ottimo il suggerimento di rivolgersi al forum indicato da Erudita

[rp76226]

I am going in circles with that website. I've been previously registered, but it did not recognize my password. I asked for them to send me one. they sent a confirmation code that they recognized, and then said they sent me a new password, but i have not received it and it's been a while. Can you send them the docuument for translation. I don't read or speak Italian and use the computer to translate.

[rp76226]

I am going in circles with that website. I've been previously registered, but it did not recognize my password. I asked for them to send me one. they sent a confirmation code that they recognized, and then said they sent me a new password, but i have not received it and it's been a while. Can you send them the document for translation. I don't read or speak Italian and use the computer to translate.

[rp76226]

I finally got my password hours later. I put the request on that Italian site to translate the Latin document.

[erudita74]

Let us know what you find out, Ron
Erudita

[rp76226]

Erudita - still no response. Also, I logged in back to the site and I cannot find my message nor anyone's message. Depending on the computer to translate a website to English doesn't seem to work well.
Ron

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Ron

I'm not sure whether this might be what you are referring to. This looks like a request from you and there are five responses. It looks like the same record to me.
http://www.tuttogenealogia.it/index.php ... pic&t=8916

Angela

[rp76226]

This is going to cover a lot of detail and I badly need the help of experts like yourself that have been commenting here. I have been discussing with a Genealogist from Italy whether to purchase records that he says that he has of my family from Racalmuto, Sicily. First the short version -
I gave him the oldest Puma marriage record I have - the same one that you have been helping me to translate. Everyone agrees that the father of the groom is Francesco Puma. This person claims that Francesco's wife's name is Santa and that Pagliarello is just a nickname, not her last name. Note that family search has over 1,100 Pagliarello names as surnames, so i disagree that it is a nickname. This genealogist claims to have the marriage records of Francesco Puma's parents and grandparents, but not Francesco's marriage records. However, he claims that the birth records he has found of his siblings proves who his parents are. I disagree. A birth record would not have his future wife, just his parents. A death record might have both spouse and parents and could be used to tie accurately to the marriage records he does have.
Now the long version - I am going to paste directly from email responses he sent me plus post 3 Latin records he is using to prove his point that I cannot translate:
Hi Ron,see my answers below your questions:
Mario, before I commit to this agreement, please confirm to me that on the three marriage record images that Raimondo is **SPAM** me, so that there is no misunderstanding between us, that they are the marriage records for (note - his answers foolow my questions but are no longer appearing in bold type):
1. Francesco Puma and his wife Santa ?Pagliarello (who are listed as the parents of Giovanni Puma in the Puma-Longo marriage of 27 June 1717 - see attached):
there is not such marriage but instead he found the birth of siblings so you can be assured that he's your right ancestor
2. The Puma father of Francesco Puma in point 1.
YES
3. The Puma grandfather of Francesco Puma in point 1 and therefore the father of the Puma in point 2 marriage document.
YES, more he found the great grand father of Francesco, so you have an extra generation...
Can you elaborate a little more on what the other images are? Are they all birth certificates? Are there also some marriage and death records?
they are baptism certificate of sons and daughters of francesco...
After he sent the above, he later sent me 3 records to prove he has my real family's records. These are the links and I've indicated where I saw the name Puma or Pagliarello:
http://postimg.org/image/t5yv4wg7d/ See record # 92 on two page spread.
http://postimg.org/image/a8bd48bm9/ See record # 239 on two page spread
http://postimg.org/image/965rzqv6b/ See record # 838 on 2 page spread