Surname Amerinda or Degnovivo from Campobasso

[jvillilo]

My GGM was Clotilde Amerinda (b. 1875) who was a foundling (“proiettoâ€

[JohnArmellino]

Hi John

I have a Giuseppe Degnovivo in my database and he was a proietto. He was born circa 1872 in Campobasso and was married to Incoronata de Santis on 18 JUN 1892 in CB. They had a son Domenico who died 20 FEB 1895 in CB at the age of eight months. Incoronata de Santis died on 13 SEP 1893 in CB. Giuseppe Degnovivo then married Luisa Fallocci on 04 NOV 1897 in CB. Luisa was also a proietta. Of course, I can’t be sure if this is the same person, but I suspect he is because there usually weren’t two proietti with the same name in the same generation. This is the only Degnovivo family that I've found in CB. In addition, I've found no record of a Lorenzo Amerinda or any other individual with that surname with the exception of Clotilde Amerinda.

Clotilde and Giuseppe may have been related by blood. However, since a foundling's parents were unknown, I don't see how they could have known they were related. There is another possibility. They were both foundlings and may have been taken in by the same family and raised as siblings. Unfortunately, starting in 1866 the birth records of foundlings in CB stopped identifying the wet nurse and her husband.

PS: The photos of the cycling team I showed you were from Oratino (the Petti family). They weren't in Francesco's file, but rather in a book I have from that comune. If you want copies, I'll scan them and e-mail to you.

[BillieDeKid]

I don't know if you already have the manifests, but here is Giueseppe Degnovivo's going to his sister Clotilde in Ohio

page 1

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011


page 2

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011

His wife and child - lines 2 and 3

page 1

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0003

page 2

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0003

Giuseppe's son Domenico - line 11

page 1

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011

page 2

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011

Domenico states he still has a sister in Italy named Incoranata Degnovivo. So one of Giuseppe's daughters stayed behind at that time. Giuseppe was a bit older than this wife and the child is only 4. Considering that his son Domenico was 22 - this had to be Giuseppe's second marriage.

I'm wondering if that's what happened with Clotilde's mother. Maybe her mother was married to an Amerinda first, he passes away and then she weds Degnovivo? Making her and Giuseppe her half brother.

What is Clotilde's mothers name? Do you have a copy of Giuseppe's (Joseph's) records that say who his mother was?

This is all just a guess on my part but I think if you look at both of the mothers to see what their names were you would at least be able to rule out half brother and sister.

The only other thing would be to get the LDS films and find Giuseppe's birth act and Clotilde's (which it sounds like you already have it). If you do have it, can you post it?

Regards,
Elizabeth

[BillieDeKid]

Clotilde's manifest (line 11) and her 2 children - lines 12 and 13.

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011

Editing the post to include this link.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc19.htm

I thought Clotilde was an unusual name so I looked it up - interesting meaning.

[JohnArmellino]

I'm wondering if that's what happened with Clotilde's mother. Maybe her mother was married to an Amerinda first, he passes away and then she weds Degnovivo? Making her and Giuseppe her half brother.

What is Clotilde's mothers name? Do you have a copy of Giuseppe's (Joseph's) records that say who his mother was?

This is all just a guess on my part but I think if you look at both of the mothers to see what their names were you would at least be able to rule out half brother and sister.

As per their respective marriage records, Clotilde Amerinda and Giuseppe Degnovivo were foundlings and their natural parents were unknown. It's unlikely that they could have known of a brother-sister relationship by blood. On occasion, foundlings were later recognized by their natural parents or parent, but in such cases they usually adopt the surname of their natural father, or the natural mother where the father remains unknown. It's more likely that they may have been taken in by the same family and raised as siblings. Unfortunately, starting in 1866 the birth records of foundlings in Campobasso stopped identifying the wet nurse and her husband as a general rule. However, I haven't read these particular birth records --- I'll check them out at the FHC this week. Maybe we'll get lucky.

If I understand the manifest posted by Elizabeth correctly, Angela del Greco was the wife of Giuseppe Degnovivo in 1918. That means he must have had at least three marriages, the first two being referenced in my earlier posting.

Interesting to note that St. Clotilde was the patron of, among other things, adopted children.

[BillieDeKid]

Hi John,

I was typing while you were posting your first post. Yes, it looks like Giuseppe was married 3 times then.

I'll be very interested to see what you find this week.

One other thing that came to mind - if Clotilde (at death) listed her father as Lorenzo Amerinda is there a way for you to find out who Giuseppe (at death) listed as his father? And I'd still be interested to see who each listed as their mothers (at death). Maybe this is something JVillilo can find out if you can't? Might help to solve the mystery? Or at least put it in perspective.

[JohnArmellino]

One other thing that came to mind - if Clotilde (at death) listed her father as Lorenzo Amerinda is there a way for you to find out who Giuseppe (at death) listed as his father? And I'd still be interested to see who each listed as their mothers (at death). Maybe this is something JVillilo can find out if you can't? Might help to solve the mystery? Or at least put it in perspective.

That's a great idea. Maybe John Villilo has this info.

When an adult foundling dies in Campobasso, the death record merely states that his parents are unknown. But when they die elsewhere, sometimes the names of their quasi-adoptive parents (wet nurse and husband) are used, although often with some degree of confusion because the surnames don't match.

Romeo Guastaferri in another topic noted the same situation with his foundling ancestor's marriage record - it referred to his quasi-adoptive parents, but with the names all confused. It listed his quasi-adoptive father's correct given name but coupled it with the foundling's surname and listed his quasi-adoptive mother's correct given name but coupled it with her husband's surname. Wow! That's even confusing to type!

[Essgee]

Knew that telling JLILLILO to post here was a good idea from his Ancestry posting.

John and Elizabeth.....both have done a great job, as I was sure you would do!

Thanks.

[BillieDeKid]

Thanks Essgee. I'm glad he posted here too.

I'm hoping JVillilo will post back and let us know if he can find out the information about Clotilde and Giuseppe's parents name's used at death.

[jvillilo]

Hi folks - thank you so much for helping to solve this mystery. I've been too involved in following my Tribe into the World Series for a couple days and forgot to check back. Anyway, back on topic: I do have Giuseppe's (Joseph) death certificate and it lists Pasquale Degnovivo as his father and Filomene (unknown) as his mother. It's interesting but after my GGF Giovanni Vallillo died of TB in 1917, Clotilde married 3 months later to Rocco DeSantis, who emigrated est. 1909. Rocco was previously married to Maria Colantoni who emigrated in 1914 with their sons Elentario (Luther) and Donato (Daniel). Maria disappeared soon leaving the boys and Clotilde then became the mother along with her own 4 children. Jospeh D.'s DOB was 12 Mar 1873. The Cleveland Library necrology files show Clotilde listed as Joseph's sister and vice versa on Clotilde (now DeSantis) obituary.

http://dxsrv4.cpl.org/WebZ/Authorize?se ... le=noframe

Clotilde's death certificate shows Lorienze Degnovivo as the father but mother is "unknown". All very interesting....

[BillieDeKid]

This is very confusing. John and jvillilo, do either one of you two have any kind of dates for Lorienze/Lorenzo.....a marriage, death, birth etc.?

Jvillilo - at the top of the thread you say the death certificate for Clotilde names Lorenzo Amerinda as her father and in your last post you have Lorienze Degnovivo. Can you post the name, once again, listed on Clotildes death certificate?

Thanks.........and yes this is very interesting

[jvillilo]

Clotilde's death certificate lists Lawrienze Degnovivo as her father but the interment record and funeral home invoice says Lawrienze Amerinda as father; therein lies the problem

[JohnArmellino]

Hi John - I wonder if Lorenzo and Filomena were the given names of the couple who may have taken in both Clotilde and Giuseppe. Do you have any other data (obits, etc) that may tell us what Filomena's surname is? If so, I may be able to find Lorenzo and Filomena in my database. As it stands, I have not run accross either Lorenzo Amerinda or Lorenzo Degnovivo in Campobasso.

Edit: My mistake - I see that Giuseppe's death record states that his father's given name is Pasquale rather than Lorenzo.

[BillieDeKid]

John,

I searched steve morse again and found that Amerinda is a first name not a last name. So is it possible that the name is Clotilde Amerinda with no last name and when a couple adopted or wet nurses family would take her they were suppose to give her their last name? Possible?

[JohnArmellino]

I searched steve morse again and found that Amerinda is a first name not a last name. So is it possible that the name is Clotilde Amerinda with no last name and when a couple adopted or wet nurses family would take her they were suppose to give her their last name? Possible?

While Amerinda can be a given name, in this case it was the surname used in her marriage record. A foundling was arbitrarily assigned a given name and a surname by a civil official of the comune soon after his or her abandonment. I have never seen an exception in the civil records of Campobasso, as well as the other towns in which I've done research (all in Abruzzo, Molise, Bari, or Otranto). Occasionally, you will find a record wherein a foundling is referred to by the surname of the quasi-adoptive family, but this is via error on the part of the transcriber. I suspect in everyday life that it may have been common for a foundling to use the surname of his or her quasi-adoptive family, but for record-keeping purposes the assigned surname was used. I'll look up her birth record tomorrow night at the FHC to confirm this.