Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

[Mbmal]

This is not good news but it also says that in 1923 he was living in us for 15 uninterrupted years....not true.... And why does the petition record I got off ancestry.com say it was cancelled on the same day this document states his citizenship was granted? Also was citizenship granted on the same day as a petition request? Would it make a difference if I can show passenger records where he states his permanent residency as lecare? Or if he was issued citizenship it wouldn't matter if it was done under false pretenses?....not good. Sebastiano is ggf...he came over in 1921 with his father and where he states on the manifest that he will not go back to Italy.

[johnnyonthespot]

It is very difficult to say with certainty what the situation was. One possibility for the cancelled petition is that it contained one or more significant errors and a replacement was prepared on the spot. Or, he shifted to another court district and had to file a new petition accordingly.

The left side of Image 2 contains a note concerning Domenico's naturalization certificate # 1602790. This information does make things much simpler: you can go to https://genealogy.uscis.dhs.gov/ and choose the "Request a specific file by file number in a Record Request without Request Case ID" option. When you get to the part where it asks for the file number, say you have a "C" file and enter the number C1602790.

You can try contacting the court clerk's office to see if the documents would be more readily available directly from the court; see http://www.nycourts.gov/supctmanh/count ... ations.htm



It may take a few months, but ultimately you should receive copies of Domenico's naturalization documents.

[Mbmal]

Yes I saw that number. This does not bode well for my son since his ggf would have turned 21 in 1924. I just do not understand how it would have been granted if he only came in 1921 to remain permanently. I can only assume that he was not truthful on his length of time in US. Maybe something that commonly occured but wouldn't help my son out. I would guess then that sebastiano his ggf was granted his citizenship retroactively when he applied in 1941

[mler]

Italy prefers to have as many Italian-Americans on it's teams as possible. A great opportunity for your son.

Actually Italian teams want the best players, and if they can field American players, who have played baseball and basketball from childhood, it strengthens their teams. But being a good Italian-American player is not enough because many Italian teams can only field players who are citizens. This is likely why citizenship is an immediate issue for Mbmal.

As a side note, a NJ soccer player who is also an Italian citizen has played in the Italian leagues and almost made the Italian World Cup team. It's too bad he didn't opt for the US team because they could have really used him and he would have had an opportunity to play in these exciting games.

Mbmal, is Italian citizenship an actual requirement for your son in this case?

[Mbmal]

Yes it is. He signed a commitment form and they really want him to come over all is set aside from this issue....unfortunately a very big issue. He is trying to stay hopeful.

[mler]

I thought that was probably the case. Don't give up though; if you send for the certificate as Carmine suggests, you may find positive information. I hope things work out for your son; it's an exciting opportunity.

Please let us know how things turn out.

[Mbmal]

Thank you both and I will let you know what happens...let's keep our fingers crossed!!

[Mbmal]

is there any way of checking voting records in Italy for either Domeico Marvagna or Sebastiano Marvagna....

[Mbmal]

so, i found out that the C-file is in MO so it will take some time. hopefully not too long. once i get that, if granted retroactively, i guess i might have a fight on my hands to see if the cancellation of the gggf naturalization meant that the ggf should or could not have gotten a derivative one. according to laws i am reading if the naturalization was cancelled it cancelled any derived from it. so we will see. i asked about voting records only because i am trying to prepare myself for anything that might come our way as proof of italian citizenship. i think they are getting a bit inpatient waiting for my son's final piece of the puzzle...but we are still trying.

[mler]

If the naturalization was cancelled, there was no naturalization and, therefore, no citizenship to derive. Of course, this assumes that no intervening petition replaced the one that was cancelled. Hope it works out for you and your son.

[Mbmal]

ok but if there was an intervening petiion wouldnt that be attached to all of the naturalization papers i found? do you think i would need to go to court with all of this if the derivative was somehow granted and shouldnt have been or will the consulate accept the paperwork that i have....nothing is easy but we keep trying...thanks again for your help and Carmine's. you are my support people THANK YOU all of this can make you crazy

[Mbmal]

some advice. The consulate might be willing to look over the paperwork that i have thus far (through a friend) although i am missing the record from USCIS for my sons great grandfather, should i send along the naturalization and cancellation for his great great grandfather...if they are willing to take a look or should i wait until i see what the file says and then attach with the cancellation.

[mler]

It's a tough call, Mbmal. If you ask the consulate to look through your papers now, though, any information they give you will not be really helpful because the information you are providing is incomplete. The date of naturalization is really significant.

[Mbmal]

Yea that is what I figured too. I was just hoping that if they saw the gggf lost his naturalization in 1938 it would be good enough. If for some reason they gave the ggf derivative citizenship retroactively in 1941 I have a different fight. The strange thing would be if the ggf requested a certificate of derivative citizenship in or around 1940. They would have to see that his fathers citizenship was cancelled and should not have granted the ggf derivative but should have made him apply on his own. It is all crazy to me but I wonder if the consulate would listen to that argument worse case scenario..

[mler]

It's such an unusual case, but I think that if they see that the gggf lost his naturalization in 1938, they will still then want to know what the gf did in terms of naturalization because he, too, was born in Italy and could have naturalized on his own behalf anytime after his 21st birthday.

This search would then uncover the certificate of derivative citizenship, which you would then have to show he received in error. So it seems you best bet is to focus on proving that the gggf did not naturalize at all.