Russo/Pittari marriage

[PurrfectMeow]

Thank you for the additional information!

Yes, maybe on her not knowing her age. Odd though, because I think she'd at least have an idea. Not be off by over 10 whole years. Suppose it could be intentionally making herself younger because she didn't like growing old, but then that makes Nunziata's birth record even more questionable, I'd think.

Is there a site for lipari births before 1820? I'd like to find her birth to confirm her age, but the lowest that site goes to is 1820. I may took a look at birth records tomorrow. I wonder if there could be any children born after Nunziata? Surely that would confirm there must've been some adoption going on? Usually didn't the parents have children right away, if there really aren't any born in the first 6 years of their marriage that too seems off to me. But, will keep in mind there could be some born in the years the records got damaged.

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi there
I can see you are online. I've just done a quick look through some more indices for you and have found two more possible syblings as follows:

Birth Record No 16: Antonino Pittari
Recorded: 27 January 1843, 4 pm, Lipari
Antonino Pittari, 30 (1813) , Agricoltore, living Contrada Masta? presented a male born to his legitimate wife Giuseppa Russo, age 20 (1823), with whom he lived. Their baby was born on 26 January 1843, 8 am at their home and was given the name Antonino.

Baptism details:
No 16: Baptised on 27 January 1843 at the Cathedral.

(So three years later the parents are still the same age?)
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0

Birth No 112: Giovanna Pittari
Recorded 29 May 1847, 4 pm, Lapari
Antonino Pittari, the father, age 30 (1817), Agricoltore, living in Lipari, presented a female, born to his legitimate wife living with him, Giuseppa Russo, age 26 (1821). Their child was born on 28 May 1847 at their home and given the name Giovanna.
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0
(Antonino is the same age but Giuseppa has got older?)
Angela

[PurrfectMeow]

Thank you for the additional finds!

Would the marriage age be the one most accurate? I heard that in order to get married in Italy they had to show their birth records.

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you for the additional information! Glad to help.

Yes, maybe on her not knowing her age. Odd though, because I think she'd at least have an idea. Not be off by over 10 whole years. Suppose it could be intentionally making herself younger because she didn't like growing old, but then that makes Nunziata's birth record even more questionable, I'd think.Antonino presented the information at each of these births and possibly he also presented the information for the marriage so it maybe him that is in error? Or it might be a combination of things, clerks often got things wrong.

Is there a site for lipari births before 1820? I'll check and see what is available to rent from Family Search.I'd like to find her birth to confirm her age, but the lowest that site goes to is 1820. I may took a look at birth records tomorrow. I wonder if there could be any children born after Nunziata? Surely that would confirm there must've been some adoption going on? Usually didn't the parents have children right away, if there really aren't any born in the first 6 years of their marriage that too seems off to me. Not always, he might "possibly" have worked away from home and when they were together the timing wasn't right? The children are quite well spaced.But, will keep in mind there could be some born in the years the records got damaged.

I'm back at work tomorrow so can't do anymore on this. I'll leave you to look and see whether there were any more children born to this couple. If you find any more and need help with the translations just post here and someone will be happy to help. I'll check out Family Search and see what is available there to rent.
Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you for the additional finds!

Would the marriage age be the one most accurate? Normally it would be.I heard that in order to get married in Italy they had to show their birth records.

That's right. There was a list on the marriage record of the allegati that was presented. Allegati (also called Processitti) are the supplementary documents required in order for a marriage to proceed.

The Allegati presented in order for Giuseppa and Antonino's wedding to take place were as follows:

1. Birth Act of the Groom
2. Birth Act of the Bride
3. Death Acts of both parents of the Groom and paternal grandfather.
4. Death Act of father and paternal grandfather of Bride.
5. Atto di Notificazione (Marriage Banns)

Hopefully this is the correct link about Allegati if you are interested: http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/l ... ti#p208703 (Scroll to the top)
Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

The Family Search records available to rent also start at 1820: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog ... %20Library

Unfortunately Allegati, which always offer a wealth of information, are not mentioned on any of these films

I guess you might need to write a letter to Lipari and request Giuseppa's birth record. Maybe just start a new post and ask how you would go about doing this and someone will be able to help you with a letter written in Italian and the correct address.
Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Birth No 30: Domenico Pittari
Recorded 16 February 1851, 4 pm, Lipari
Father: Antonino Pittari, 34 (1817), bracciale – farm hand, labourer, living Lapari
Mother: Giuseppa Russo, 26 (1825), legitimate wife of the declarant with whom he lived
Date of Birth: 14 February 1851, 1 pm
Baptised 16 February at the Cathedral

http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0

So this basically brings us up to 1856. Some years were missing: 1842, 1852, 1855 and I didn't look through the 1844 and 1848 indices nor the ones I mentioned that were waterstained/torn.

If you were wanting to write to Lipari to request a copy of Giuseppa's birth record, this should be the address:
Ufficio di Stato Civile
Comune di Lipari
Piazza Mazzini 1
98055 Lipari ME
Italy
I'm sure someone here might help you with the Italian wording and exactly what to ask for. It would be great to solve the problem of exactly when she was born. Good luck with that.
Angela

[PurrfectMeow]

Thank you for all the information! And the additional find.

Maybe I will write to lipari. How much do they charge for records? I am not sure how to even send stuff overseas. I assume google translate wouldn't be a good tool to use if I did write hence why I should post for help?

My eyes were hurting me the past couple days so I have not looked too much more. Looked through 1860 I believe and were no births.

I'll have to look through other later years to confirm were no children born after Nunziata. I don't know if there even were adoptions back then in lipari though or what the likelihood of that could be. But, if they really had to prove their age then her age on the marriage record should be correct and that would as I said put her at being born about 1807 and Nunziata was born in 1856. I would think a child being born to a 49 year in those days would be pretty unlikely, not sure if even possible or not. Maybe someone can take a look at the birth record for Nunziata and tell me if the site misindexed it and gave it the wrong year? Anyone else have 50 year old mothers in their trees?

[AngelaGrace56]

Happy I could find the extra records

Re: writing to Italy, I have not yet done this myself – only for military records so best if someone else advises you about this from their experience.

I'm sorry but I'm just not with you on the adoption thing. Maybe if you explain what your thinking is and start up a new thread. My observation is that there are a lot of errors in these records from Lipari. I noticed that there were discrepancies with ages on some other records from Lipari that were found for you earlier on as well. It is actually very common to have age discrepancies on these records and I know that it can be frustrating as well.

Re: Nunziata's birth record, it definitely says 1856 which both Marty and Paolo have already confirmed and it definitely says Giuseppa was 45.

I've found the following two death records. Giuseppa's is even more perplexing. In this case Antonino was not a reporter of the information.

Death Record No 54: Giuseppa Russo
Recorded: 11 April 1873, 9 am, Lipari
Giuseppa Russo, died yesterday (10 April 1873) 7 pm at Contrada Ponte. She was aged 75 (1798), a farmer, born and living in Lipari, wife of Antonino Pittari, daughter of the late Giovani Battista and the late Nunziata Famularo (it looks like Famularo not Favalaro on this record. It is just another error, I'd say.)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,179206201

Death Record No 45: Antonino Pittari
Recorded: 25 March 1875, 4.30 pm, Lapari
Appearing were Giovanni ?, 48, Agricoltore and Domenico Pacone, 28, both living in Lipari, to report the death of Antonino Pittari, 61 (1814), Agricoltore, born and residing in Lipari. He was the son of the late Onofrio, Agricoltore and the late Giovanna Candila, Contadina who both lived in Lapari in life. Antonino was the widower of Giuseppa Russo.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,179206201

(Just a thought: I'm wondering whether the error has initially started with the Marriage Record. Like you say, they would have needed to produce Giuseppa's Birth Record before the marriage took place. The Birth Record would probably not have been the original (my understanding). It would have been a hand written copy of the original birth record – a transcription. I have seen mistakes made on these before – names, ages mis-transcribed. Anyway just my thinking here.)

I don't have a lot of time now to spend on this as it is only a few days before Christmas and I have family celebrations as well. I'll have another look after the Christmas/New year/Family festivities. I'm sure this will all fit into place. I hope you have a blessed Christmas.
Angela

[PurrfectMeow]

Thank you once again for your reply and the additional finds!

My thoughts were that Nunziata must have been adopted because I didn't see how her mother could have her naturally at the age of 49, especially in those days. I know it said Giuseppa was 45 on Nunziata's birth record, (which still seems pretty old for having a child) but going by the age from her marriage licence she would be 49 instead. I am wondering how likely one would have been in those days to get pregnant naturally when they were almost 50. I know nowadays it's rare. If birth record she proved was a copy though and her birth year on it mistranslated, then that makes sense.

Have a great Christmas too and thanks again for all the help!