Chromosome painting anomalies

Genetic genealogy is the application of genetics to traditional genealogy. Genetic genealogy involves the use of genealogical DNA testing to determine the level and type of the genetic relationship between individuals.
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MarcuccioV
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Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

So here is yet ANOTHER head-scratcher. On my 23&Me chromosome paint report, I have easily identified the maternal chromosome as (depending on confidence level) it is Italian (or Southern European) almost exclusively except for small pockets which could account for the other admixtures (Greek, Anatolian, etc) found from that side.

The problem (or mystery) is that (again depending on confidence level) I show Italian (or southern European) on my PATERNAL chromosome as follows:

Chromosome 2: 30% (at the 50% CL) 25% (at the 90% CL)

Chromosome 15: 100% (at BOTH CL’s)

Chromosome 22: 15% (at the 50% CL) 0%* (at the 90% CL) *changes to broadly European

As far as my family tree & documentation goes, there is NO Italian on my father’s side.

I can understand C-22 MIGHT be a misread of some of the French a little deeper in his tree, but C-2 and ESPECIALLY C-15 have me stumped. The rest of his chromosomes are UK and broadly European, which align with my documentational research. The GEDmatch results for those chromosomes vary so widely between projects that it creates more confusion than clarity.

The only possible Italian surname I can find in my father’s tree (so far) is “Sallare” (albeit born in Devon, England) and furthermore about 6 generations deep. And there are 2 more “mysteries” that add even more anomalies to the mix:

My father was somewhat swarthy, and would tan very dark when in the sun but not burn (I am the same, although I have always attributed that to my Italian half) DESPITE mostly UK ancestry (with some German, NW European and French thrown in). DNA matches prove without a doubt that the tree I have created is accurate with regards to the recent generations (at least 4 or 5). And the Y-haplogroup is R-Z19 which confirms that ancestry.

I also have a high DNA match (2nd cousin) that I was not aware of that is of considerable Italian ancestry but again has no indications of Italian surnames in her tree (and in contacting her she has no knowledge of her Italian ancestry). We DO seem to have a common ancestor (about 6 generations back) on my paternal side, but that doesn’t add up to the extremely high DNA match.

So although I’m not seeking definitive answers here, I’m wondering what some possible scenarios could be..? An adopted Italian child, perhaps (although I can find no such relationship)..? A changed name to hide an embarrassing ancestry (although again, no evidence)..? I am at a loss.

Anyway, any insights appreciated (and I don’t have any misconceptions about this remaining unsolved)...
Mark

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MarcuccioV
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

Here is a photo of my parents taken in the '60's. You can see my dad's complexion is about the same as my mom's, which was considerably olive (her ancestry turns out to be mostly southern Italian/Sicilian). It never got lighter than this even when out of the sun. Any opinions on his features (documentation shows mostly UK ancestry)..?
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

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I don't know much about DNA, but it seems to be a valid approach to address your questions about heritage. So, I think you should continue along those lines.

However, you may be placing too much emphasis on looks, which vary widely within ethnic groups (and within families).

Sometimes, looks are explainable like the "Black Irish" who have Spanish ancestry due to ship travel, trading, invasions, etc. over generations. I think the surname Costello is a common example of Black Irish. I had a friend named McNamara in high school who looked Spanish or Italian but was Irish. Think of the Spanish Armada. Or, looks might be the result of one surprise marriage or encounter in the family tree. But, sometimes looks might just be due to chance or genetic drift.

I think your strategy of looking at the geographical and ethnic distribution of names might help.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by darkerhorse »

I would also add that such DNA results are only estimates of ethnicity, and may be not be truly representative.

Isn't DNA science "evolving"?
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 31 Mar 2021, 17:50 I don't know much about DNA, but it seems to be a valid approach to address your questions about heritage. So, I think you should continue along those lines.

However, you may be placing too much emphasis on looks, which vary widely within ethnic groups (and within families).

Sometimes, looks are explainable like the "Black Irish" who have Spanish ancestry due to ship travel, trading, invasions, etc. over generations. I think the surname Costello is a common example of Black Irish. I had a friend named McNamara in high school who looked Spanish or Italian but was Irish. Think of the Spanish Armada. Or, looks might be the result of one surprise marriage or encounter in the family tree. But, sometimes looks might just be due to chance or genetic drift.

I think your strategy of looking at the geographical and ethnic distribution of names might help.
I knew you would chime in. You mention the 'black Irish', (which I am fully aware of), yet the recent Irish on his line (probably the least of his UK ancestries) are all blonde or ginger with blue eyes (and furthermore were immigrants from Scotland and not native Irish). I will have to delve further into each branch on his tree (which I am trying to do). So far, I seem to have DNA matches on each branch, which possibly rules out any of the scenarios you mention.

So far my research has hit a dead end, but I'm not giving up. BTW, NONE of my ancestral breakdowns from all the matrixes I've uploaded to indicates ANY Spanish ancestry...
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by afecad »

You can find out more on your Paternal side if you do Big Y-700 on FTDNA, take your surname into account it will unlock more on heritage connection and finding out your confirmed paternal haplogroup.

Complexions vary as people migrated and had offspring, even in my Italian family some are darker than others and 23andme the results of my test and my Mother's did not show the exact same regions, besides Calabria being the strongest, she had Sardinia, mine did not as well in her test it showed Anatolian and mine was 0%, yet 50% shared DNA is obvious.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

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I have extensive documentation on my paternal "Y" side, back to the 1600's. This is reinforced through DNA matches. The surname was 'adopted' in the 1600's to a Dutch one. Those ancestors were born in Germany (near the current Germany/Holland border), but changed to a Dutch surname after immigrating there. I know the German surname (which was short-lived as Germany only developed surnames around 1500) but so far that has hit a dead end also.

While I understand the science is fairly recent, but I don't see how a complete chromosome can be misread (especially when all the others seem dead-on) and another partly so.

Again, I know not to put ALL my eggs into the complexion basket, but looking at family photos of my paternal relatives, my dad and a couple of his brothers (he had 4 brothers) were swarthy-complected, but no one else in the prior generations carry this darker skin (at all). And there is no hanky-panky that I know of as I seem to have DNA matches to all those earlier generations.

So again, not looking at solving it, just wondering what possible scenarios might be...
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

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So, you've traced the family trees of both of your father's parents?
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by darkerhorse »

I thought I had replied about their looks but it doesn't look like it was sent.

In short, your mother looks Mediterranean or Middle Eastern, perhaps Eastern European. Not surprised she's Italian.

Your father is harder to classify. He looks more mixed. I wouldn't have guesses UK. I don't know why olive skin would have originated in his generation, other than the obvious.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 31 Mar 2021, 18:34 So, you've traced the family trees of both of your father's parents?
Yes, in some cases to the 1100's (1400's on most branches). There are a few dead ends early on, but nothing that indicates ANY Italian (or southern European) connections...

As for your observations, you are dead-on. Her Ancestry shows Italian/Greek/Middle Eastern.

I'm also perplexed by my dad's looks. But so far I'm DNA connected to all his ancestors through my matches. I know, it's weird.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

And furthermore, my first cousins (from my dad's older brother) ALSO match the same relatives, so it's doubtful that those matches are incorrect, since we have different fathers (albeit brothers)...
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

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Again. I thought I had posted a reply but I don't see it here.

I wrote that if I had to guess your mother, I'd say Greek. Is her Sicilian ancestry from eastern Sicily?

Maybe you'll get more opinions on your father's looks. I could even see some Asian and/or Hispanic influence, like Filipino. Were there sailors or pirates in his family?
However, when you zoom in, he looks more European.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

So, just for giggles & grins:

My parents from the same day (in color). He is slightly darker than her.

2 of my dad's younger brothers (swarthy skinned, dark wavy/curly hair & dark brown eyes -- my dad's youngest brother had dirty blonde hair & blue eyes).

My dad with me (in back) and my Italian (maternal) grandmother. He is darkest.

I'll probably never figure it out, but it IS intriguing...
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 31 Mar 2021, 19:08 Again. I thought I had posted a reply but I don't see it here.

I wrote that if I had to guess your mother, I'd say Greek. Is her Sicilian ancestry from eastern Sicily?

Maybe you'll get more opinions on your father's looks. I could even see some Asian and/or Hispanic influence, like Filipino. Were there sailors or pirates in his family?
However, when you zoom in, he looks more European.
No pirates in any recent history. And NO Asian on ANY Matrix (we always thought there was Native American because of the almond eyes but no indication of that, either)...

And only he had that eye shape.
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Re: Chromosome painting anomalies

Post by MarcuccioV »

I always thought he looked a little like Desi Arnaz, but again, NO Hispanic ancestry on ANY matrix.
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