Potential Ex-Italian Surname Origins

[MarcuccioV]

Has anyone researched or thought about Italian surnames that may possibly have origins outside of Italy..? I have THREE such surnames on my maternal (Italian) side (all data from cognomix.it):

Marsili -- currently widely distributed throughout Italy, popular in Lazio (where my GP's are from), second only to Toscana. Italianized from "Marseilles" (France).

Zorli -- appears to have Turkish origins. Found today mostly in Lazio, as well as to a very minor extent in Sardinia. Not found anywhere else on the peninsula.

Topani -- only other significant location outside Italy is Indonesia (this seems more coincidental than a true origin of the surname as it is most populous in the world there). Again, predominately in Lazio and to a significantly lesser extent in Lombardia.

As always, just hoping to compare with other's research to potentially draw a clearer picture of my findings.

[darkerhorse]

Have you read this?

https://www.familysearch.org/blog/en/my ... last-name/

[joetucciarone]

I read that several hundred years ago Catholics from Croatia, fleeing Muslim rule, were welcomed in the Molise region of Italy. Some molisani names, like Misischia and Marcovecchio, reflect this influx.

[darkerhorse]

I think the spelling and pronunciation of surnames also changed as people moved around Italy, especially among illiterates.

For example, someone migrating from the mainland to Sicily might find "c" changed to "z", "l" changed to "d", and "o" changed to "u",and vice versa with a migrant from Sicily to the mainland.

[MarcuccioV]

I think the spelling and pronunciation of surnames also changed as people moved around Italy, especially among illiterates.

For example, someone migrating from the mainland to Sicily might find "c" changed to "z", "l" changed to "d", and "o" changed to "u",and vice versa with a migrant from Sicily to the mainland.

There is no question, as well as parts of names (ie: Di Mattia to Mattia, etc). I have researched the sites you linked already. In some cases, names are explained to a pretty precise origin, some are a little cloudy.

"Zorli", for example, isn't listed, but similar forms are (referring to sheepskin "chaps", worn by northern shepherds), but is Zorli a modified form or does it have Turkish origins..?

Same goes for "Marsili" -- A form of the name Marsillius, but it goes no further. Was Marsillius a name given to a Roman citizen from Marseilles..? Maybe... AND Marsili IS the Italian word for Marseilles.

"Topani" isn't listed aside from the common word Topo, for mouse. Is it a modified form for "mousy or mouselike"..? Maybe as well. This one is the weakest as I think the connection to the same surname commonly found in Indonesia is remote, at best...

[darkerhorse]

How far back have you documented these family names in Italy?

[MarcuccioV]

How far back have you documented these family names in Italy?

Zorli: 4GGm (I researched her name & found a close match in Bern, Switzerland). No other info or family ties. Can't recall now how I connected the dots, but there was documentation somewhere. I think through MyHeritage.

Marsili: 3GGm -- Civil reg death act of child (my 2GGm) as well as mentioned on a notary document. Few if any in the town in question; common surname to a neighboring town...

Topani: Also 3GGm. Listed on child's death act (another 2GGm) in Civil records.

ALL are related to my maternal grandmother. All 3 surnames found in my GP's town.

[MarcuccioV]

Actually, Zorli is also on her child's death act in the civil records (he died in 1886). The one in Switzerland was the one I found on MyHeritage. May or may not be related, despite my suspicions there may be some French ancestry in my Gm...

[darkerhorse]

What years?

[MarcuccioV]

What years?

"Zorli" had a son born abt 1820, so her birthdate range should be around 1775-1800 (the one I found with the same name in Switzerland was born in 1784).

"Marsili" had a son also born abt 1820, so similar birthdate range should apply.

"Topani" had a daughter born in 1824, so birthdate range roughly 1780-1805.

All were dead prior to 1871 (when civil records began for the town), so only info I have is off of their offspring's death acts.

[PippoM]

According to Italian White Pages, both Zorli and Topani seem to be very local to that area.
I think Parish registers would help a lot determining the origin of the surname.
I reconstructed a wide tree of my wife's family, thanks to them having settled in a small village in Viterbo area, where most marriages took place within the communuity, and I could observe the "birth" of several surnames from about 1650 to 1750, and the transformation of patronymics into actual surnames. Also, I could see how many of them came from areas I would never think (such as, for instance, Switzerland).
And that would not always explain the "meaning" of it. A friend of mine has his surname suddenly risen (in Umbria) as a nickname, but is still wondering WHY his ancestor had it, as no conjectures can be done, for instance, from dialect, or from names of places.

[darkerhorse]

Have you checked marriage allegati and Catasti/Riveli for earlier records?

[MarcuccioV]

According to Italian White Pages, both Zorli and Topani seem to be very local to that area.
I think Parish registers would help a lot determining the origin of the surname.
I reconstructed a wide tree of my wife's family, thanks to them having settled in a small village in Viterbo area, where most marriages took place within the communuity, and I could observe the "birth" of several surnames from about 1650 to 1750, and the transformation of patronymics into actual surnames. Also, I could see how many of them came from areas I would never think (such as, for instance, Switzerland).
And that would not always explain the "meaning" of it. A friend of mine has his surname suddenly risen (in Umbria) as a nickname, but is still wondering WHY his ancestor had it, as no conjectures can be done, for instance, from dialect, or from names of places.

Yes, the origins are intriguing, such as Zorli and Marsili. Since Zorli might be a take on Zorloni, which refers to those sheepskin chaps of Northern shepherds, that might tie in to the possible relative from Switzerland.

Marsili may have been a French immigrant, soldier or visitor who stayed.

Hopefully I can make some inroads.

[MarcuccioV]

Have you checked marriage allegati and Catasti/Riveli for earlier records?

Not yet. Do you have links..?

[darkerhorse]

For Catasti and Riveli you most likely would have to visit an LDS Family History Center in person. Some records date back to the 1500s. I've found Riveli records in my grandparents' town in Sicily with variant spellings of their surname back to the 1590s, though I couldn't establish family relationships.

Same for marriage allegati unless you can find them online. I suppose you'd want to search the earliest marriage allegati. I've found baptism records for brides and grooms, and death records for parents, dating back to the 1700s in marriage allegati records of the 1820s and 1830s, for example.

Start by checking for availability on Ancestry, Family Search, and Antenati. You also can do an Internet by town search because I've seen some old property records online for selected families/towns.