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Hello fellow researchers,
Can anyone please help to identify a possible birth place for my great-great-grandfather?
He appears in the 1921 Census in Scotland which confirms his birthplace as Italy but frustratingly I cannot read the original script and don’t know enough Italian place names to recognise the “shape of the letters”.
I have included a screenshot image below. It is line 9 that I am interested in - there is another Italian who is on line 6 but it is line 9 that I need help with please.
With hope and thanks,
James
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The last word in both this line and the line above seems to be the province, Caserta and "Morena" which I'd guess is a phonetic misspelling of Modena. The village on both lines is difficult to read but if you sound it out and restrict the search area to only places in Modena, I might be inclined to think the second line could be Lama Mocogno. Would be useful to know the names to ensure it comes from this town.
Apricena, Caltanissetta, Grottolella, Mazzarino, Montefredane, Salerno, San Severo, Vasto
I looked at this yesterday and could read the name "Morena" as well there, and of course "La" but nothing else seemed too clear to me. Just my 2c.
Angela
Useful, thanks - 'Casoli' does not seem to be prevalent in Lama Mocogno but the years we would need are not currently digitally available to check for his birth. I do see there in 1898 a birth for Albertina Casali, a foundling later legitimized by parents Domenico Mammei and Beatrice Masini. Possible this was a name given to foundlings in the town?
If "Casoli" itself is from word of mouth and has some wiggle room there are certainly other Cas- surnames in the town to explore. I definitely see the writing as "La Magonia" which wouldn't be a stretch for a non-native speaker.
Apricena, Caltanissetta, Grottolella, Mazzarino, Montefredane, Salerno, San Severo, Vasto
Jamie, I can see that both you and various members of your family have been searching for a for Pietro's birth place for a very long time. I was interested to locate the following 2009 thread which has been revisited in 2021 by yourself and suanj where a lot of work was done. I have only skim read sections of the thread and will go back and have a closer read later, or maybe you could give us precis of what you learned from the thread mean time. https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/topic/14186
So he was obviously married. Do you have a copy of his marriage record?
James, not sure whether you have seen the following thread where the town of Mornago, in Verese Province, Lombardia, is noted as a Peter Casoli’s birth town. (Lombardia regions seems to fit with your DNA results?) If it is your Peter Casoli I guess it would explain why he was only included on that 1881 census? (He may have travelled to and from the US more than once.) If you haven’t already done so, maybe you could send “Balianjo” a pm and see whether s/he has learn’t more : https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... li#p277122
(I know Mornago doesn't match what has been written down on the Census form, but who knows what the Census taker thought he heard etc? (I think that the red ink indicates that the info was added later anyway? Is that correct?)
Angela, thank you again for time and thoughts. Some further facts.
We have no record of Pietro/Peter and Elizabeth McNamara marrying in Scotland.
In the 1901 and 1911 Census Elizabeth is described as Mrs Elizabeth Carswell - widow.
By 1921 she has married Edward Carrigan and is now known as Mrs Carrigan.
Pietro is in the 1921 census in Scotland as Peter Carswell - unmarried. The last census he appeared in was 1891.
Pietro’s absence from the 1901:and 1911 census might suggest he is either outside of Scotland, but he isn’t in England either suggesting he is out of the UK possibly Italy or possibly US but I think US is less likely as he has returned and it was a major journey back then. There is no evidence he was a sailor
Pietro dies in Scotland in 1939. I have seen all these census and death records.
I have already tried to contact other users in the threads but never got any replies. That’s what made me think my messages were not being sent!
Yes and the red ink was used by the clerk to indicate people born outside of UK & Ireland. The sheet we see is the final summary document - which completed by the clerk processing the enquiry documents which were completed by either the head of each household or a visiting official who asked the questions and recorded the answers.
JamLam wrote: 16 Apr 2025, 22:45
Angela, thank you again for time and thoughts. Some further facts. Happy to help. Hopefully someone else might chime in who has more experience researching UK records, Thank you for adding further information below.
We have no record of Pietro/Peter and Elizabeth McNamara marrying in Scotland.
In the 1901 and 1911 Census Elizabeth is described as Mrs Elizabeth Carswell - widow.
By 1921 she has married Edward Carrigan and is now known as Mrs Carrigan.
Pietro is in the 1921 census in Scotland as Peter Carswell - unmarried. The last census he appeared in was 1891. This doesn’t add up, does it? If you have not been able to locate a marriage for Pietro and Elizabeth, is it possible they were living together “common law?”. If Elizabeth had remarried by 1921 and Pietro was still living then had they been legally married, there should be a divorce document?
Pietro’s absence from the 1901:and 1911 census might suggest he is either outside of Scotland, but he isn’t in England either suggesting he is out of the UK possibly Italy or possibly US but I think US is less likely as he has returned and it was a major journey back then. There is no evidence he was a sailor Not really. Scotland would be closer to the US than Potenza Province where my Great Grandfather and other Italian men from the same town, would travel to and from the US to work, in the same time frame.
Pietro dies in Scotland in 1939. I have seen all these census and death records.
I have already tried to contact other users in the threads but never got any replies. That’s what made me think my messages were not being sent! Yes, I thought that might be the case. Leave a note on each of the threads as well. They may not be receiving notifications, or have forgotten their passwords or something
JamLam wrote: 16 Apr 2025, 22:55
Yes and the red ink was used by the clerk to indicate people born outside of UK & Ireland. The sheet we see is the final summary document - which completed by the clerk processing the enquiry documents which were completed by either the head of each household or a visiting official who asked the questions and recorded the answers.
Great, thanks for that info. I thought that might be the case as well, but wasn't sure.
So basically, if I’m understanding correctly, my thinking is that what could possibly have happened. is that the clerk processing the census documents may have misread what had been written as the birth town? It would be easily done. It seems like there could be a lot of room for error in documenting the correct birth town here. Have the original census documents that were completed been archived? Are you able to access the original census record? I know in some countries they are kept for 100 years and then Archived elsewhere but still viewable by request.
JamLam wrote: 16 Apr 2025, 22:55
Yes and the red ink was used by the clerk to indicate people born outside of UK & Ireland. The sheet we see is the final summary document - which completed by the clerk processing the enquiry documents which were completed by either the head of each household or a visiting official who asked the questions and recorded the answers.
Great, thanks for that info. I thought that might be the case as well, but wasn't sure.
So basically, if I’m understanding correctly, my thinking is that what could possibly have happened. is that the clerk processing the census documents may have misread what had been written as the birth town? It would be easily done. It seems like there could be a lot of room for error in documenting the correct birth town here. Have the original census documents that were completed been archived? Are you able to access the original census record? I know in some countries they are kept for 100 years and then Archived elsewhere but still viewable by request.
Angela
The original household documents are not publicly available on the Scotland’s People website ( National Records of Scotland ). I will make an enquiry about if they are available for physical inspection(unlikely) or possibly on micro-fiche/digital in person at Register House in Edinburgh. The 1921 Census is the latest that is publicly available.
I’m also testing the “ reply with quote” function to you - if this works correctly I will try to contact the other researchers seeking Pietro again.
Thank you again Angela - it is great to have someone to bounce ideas off.
There has been a strong custom in Italy that determines how children are named: The first male is named after his paternal grandfather.The second male is named after his maternal grandfather.The first female is named after her paternal grandmother.The second female is named after her maternal grandm...
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