documents for hopemax

[oilman19]

I haven't yet ordered any post 1900 nati's or morti's, only matrimoni's (except 1909 & 1910). They are not on my short list of films currently needed for my research.
I have searched 1887-1898. I can look back a bit further. I have nati's 1883-1887. Since ages tend to vary from document to document (my experience), maybe he was older than he thought he was. I may be able to do a more comprehensive search on Saturday for you.
If you are going to order films, why not order one's that I don't have. I will send you an email with the list of films that I have. That way we can save duplication and maybe you will spot something I can use.
I have mentioned this in other posts. It seems whenever I found a record I was seeking to answer a mystery, I frequently ended up with a new mystery to be solved. This is our driving force.
I hope you were able to glean sufficient info from these records.

[hopemax]

Unfortunately, pegging his birth at 1889-1890 is already making him older than I thought. The US records (marriage, death and family memory) give an age that would have his birth in 1892. It's the immigration records that give me the 1890 timeframe.

His brother Ludovico, had listed a US birthday of 14 Feb 1893, but through your research I know this now to be incorrect, and his actual birth record was 19 Oct 1892.

Even if the immigration record is wrong with the ages, I would think it would at least have the order of the children's birth correct. Guglielmo was listed as the oldest child, on the immigration form, so I would think his birth would be before Ludovico's. But if you can't find anything going back to 1887, he would have to be telling everyone he was at least 5 years younger than he was. I suppose anything is possible though.

[oilman19]

I know my grandfather's b'day varied by 5 years throughout his 45 years in U.S. I can't explain it to my satisfaction.
When I reviewed the microfilms for Guglielmo, I relied on the indexes, where available. I believe I had to peruse 1 year that had no index. It is possible I missed a record. If possible, I'll give it another serious look on Saturday.
Would you have a guess when his parents were married, and was it in S.M. It might be easier to predict when the 1st child was born. Maybe some info from an old obituary would give a clue. Also, is it possible he was not born in S.M.?

[hopemax]

Reviewing what I know (or think I know, lol)

Father: Oronzo born ~1847 location: unknown, death - unknown, possible Italy between 1901-1906
Mother: Maria Teresa Ballerino born ~ 1857 in Venosa, death - unknown, in USA

Children with confirmed births:

Orazio: born 12 Feb 1888
Ludovico: born 19 Oct 1892
Assunta: born 29 Oct 1895
Gennaro: born 21 Sept 1898

Children, unconfirmed births:

Guglielmo
Maria Grazia ~ 1901

Since the family was definitely in S M in 1888, and 1892, if Guglielmo was born in the time frame I believe, the most likely scenario is he was also born in S M. But, I suppose they could have lived somewhere in between and returned to S M. Or they were traveling. Or Guglielmo was older.

Speculating,

I also have record of a Ghiura who was born in Venosa, died in Santa Maria. I do not know how he is related to my Ghiuras. But his existence might indicate Oronzo and Maria Teresa were married in Venosa, and a group of the family moved to Santa Maria. It would be helpful if they, indeed, were married in S M because they have more recent records available than Venosa. I can get Venosa records prior to 1860, so I will search for a record of birth for Maria Teresa Ballerino, and any Ghiuras. But with that 1860 date, it would be too early to search for marriage records for my Ghiuras but maybe there are parents/aunts/uncles.

EDIT: I just realized there are records for Potenza post 1860 on ancestry.com, so I guess I will be looking at those, for any trace of the family in Venosa.

EDIT #2: Apparently, Venosa is not one of the localities included.

M. T would have been 30ish when Orazio was born, Oronzo age 40 so I would not be surprised to find existence of additional children prior to 1888. And I suppose, any marriage records would be possible from 1875 +/- a few years.

Thank you for being willing to take another look; you have given me so much info already. I am certainly willing to go through them myself, and let you concentrate on your own research.

[oilman19]

I think what I was trying to determine was if Guglielmo was the oldest child, is it possible they moved to S.M. after the birth of their 1st child.
Or, do I have my facts messed up.
It sounds like you aren't sure of the order of children except for what you have seen on the manifest.
Anyway, that is the theory I was proposing if we aren't able to find the birth and/or marriage record you seek.

[oilman19]

Hi Hope

I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is: I can't find Guglielmo.

The good news is:
I found:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3351 ... th1884.jpg
Giovanni b. 4 Jun 1884 of Oranzo and Maria Ballerini
and
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5930/ghi ... th1885.jpg
Giuseppa b. 27 May 1885 of Pasquale and Louisa Grantomari(sp)?
and
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/563/ ... rimoni.jpg
marriage of Pasquale Ghiura 25 of Francesco and Maria ???????? to Louisa Gianbomasi(sp)? 22 of deceased Luigi and Raffaela Meola

Hope this helps.

I've covered 1883 to 1898 (reasonably thorough) and no Guglielmo.
Sorry

[hopemax]

Thank you so much for trying. You have given me so much more info than I ever expected.

I hope I can return the favor someday.

[oilman19]

Hi again, Hope

I found a few more birth acts that prove your roots are further back in S.M. I have to assume this is the same Oronzo to whom you referred earlier.

Maybe someone will do a more complete translation of these 2 birth acts for you. They should help in your journey into the past.

http://img690.imageshack.us/i/ghiuralou ... h1861.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/ghiurater ... h1860.jpg/

Good luck

[hopemax]

Thank you Jim.

One of the previous documents you sent me was a death certificate for Francesco Javiero Ghiura. So I believe, these are his children. Since I have never seen it before, what does the fn Oronzo after that part of the name represent? Is it part of his name, reference to his father ("like son of Oronzo?" I was already wondering if Francesco was my Oronzo's father.

Edit: oh, is it "fu" indicating his father was Oronzo, but is deceased? I notice after the mother's name it says, "di" Pasquale. I assume, then this is her father, and he was still living?

Also, on the record for Teresa, there are notations in the margins, and I would really like help translating those. I think I can manage the main part of the record, since it is a standard form. But trying to figure out those words I think will be quite problematic. I am assuming they are cross-references to other records.

Thanks!

[oilman19]

Hope

I agree

It looks like Teresa was married on 2 Apr 1880 and 29 Jul 1881. The first to Carmine Liguore? I can't figure out the 2nd.
Sorry!

[maestra36]

Jim
About the two notations-

the one dated 2 April 1880 is not a marriage notation. The only marriage notation is the one at the bottom left. The notation dated April 2, 1880 appears to me to be an adoption. With an act dated April 2, 1880, Teresa Chiara became the adopted daughter of Signora Carmina di Falco, of deceased Antonio.

The marriage of Chiara de Falco with Attilio Cervo was on July 29, 1881.

[oilman19]

Wow!

I wasn't even close.

[maestra36]

I should have added the name of the court for the adoption-

Corte d'Apello di Napoli

There is another date buried in the notation, which is May 11 or 18 of the same year (1880). I am not sure what that date is.

[oilman19]

http://img178.imageshack.us/i/ghiuraadd ... r1849.jpg/
http://img828.imageshack.us/i/ghiuraadd ... r1849.jpg/

Hi Hope

I found the matrimoni for Francesco Javerio Ghiura 31 to Maria Giuseppa Addonisio 22 on 25 Jun 1849.
Page 2 has quite an extensive write up about something. I cannot understand any of it. Maybe someone else can figure out what it says.

I wish you well.

[oilman19]

Hi Hope

I have another birth act for you.
On 11 Dec 1850, was born Giovanni Ghiura to Francesco Severio 33 of (deceased) __our__? and Maria Giuseppa Addonisio 22 of Pasqua.

http://img253.imageshack.us/i/ghiuragio ... h1850.jpg/
http://img264.imageshack.us/i/ghiuragio ... h1850.jpg/

Hope this helps.