I was told to give up!

[jennabet]

I recommend presenting the Census and telling them why you think it's an error. Make sure you come up with a good story to convince them. They really can't prove otherwise, unless they know something about this immigrant that you don't.

By the way, I lived in Italy for many years. The Old Country knows everything about any Italian who ever lived there -- AND their descendants, no matter where they were born.

Did you know that Lisa Nowak, the American Astronaut who drove a thousand miles to accost her rival in a love triangle, is an Italian-American who's real name is Lisa Marie Caputo and who's grand-parents are from Molise? I didn't know it either but I heard about it on Italian TV as soon as the news hit the airwaves .

[lowlight]

My 2nd visit (in the final 3-4 min) was me stating that very position and she said sorry.

yeah, my mind has been percolating while threading here. Have a look at this:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mhc_s ... 9699_7.pdf

read the first 2 paragraphs

from this it would seem that someone could not have become naturalized in as short a time as he claimed. Even in 1904 Or maybe I'm reading this the way I want to see it.

Could I apply directly to his comune?

[johnnyonthespot]

I recommend presenting the Census and telling them why you think it's an error. Make sure you come up with a good story to convince them. They really can't prove otherwise, unless they know something about this immigrant that you don't.

Jennabet, the consulate does not have to prove anything. From their point of view, the most sacred part of this entire process is proving that the "Italian ancestor" was indeed still Italian at the moment the next person in the lineage was born. It is the applicant's task to provide proof to the consulate, not the other way around.

Unfortunately for Lowlight, every possible evidentiary document is against him: the 1910, 1920, and 1930 censuses all state that his ancestor naturalized; the 1920 adds the extra burden of giving the naturalization date of 1904. Adding insult to injury, the WWI draft registration also indicates that his ancestor naturalized, and the 1900 census lists him as an alien thus indicating that he knew the difference.

I just don't see this getting past the consulate. The only salvation in this case would be to prove that, yes, naturalization did occur, but rather than in 1904, it actually happened at least 8 years later, beyond the birth of son Herman in late 1912.

It is an unfortunate situation, but I don't see how it could ever be resolved in any other way.

Although unlikely, Lowlight could seek out a US Passport application for Alfredo; if one does exist, I believe it would state the year and place of naturalization. See http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/passport/

Also, look for a passport in Mary's name. Perhaps she required one in later life, and it appears that she naturalized deriveratively through marriage so the date and place would be identical

[lowlight]

the passport is not a bad idea, I'll look into it. I've searched 8 of the 15 Upper Peninsula counties in Michigan and found nothing. I guess the way I see it is maybe a different consulate would not put so much weight on the census, also say I find 1st papers or a letter of intent, what's to say the consulate doesn't add that to my burden of proof against me as opposed to viewing it as the process was started but never completed? Maybe it's time I put a professional to work on finding these papers, not that what you all have discovered is not the cat's meow. And obviously your more diligent then myself.

[johnnyonthespot]

When non-naturalization is claimed, every consulate I am aware of demands a certified copy of the census immediately after the birth of the US-born ancestor (in your case, Herman in 1912 - thus the 1920 census). If the 1910 and 1930 censuses both indicated ALien status, you would be in a much stronger position. As it is, the consulate knows that pre-1906 naturalization documents can be difficult to find and so places less weight on the "No Records Found" letters and more weight on the damning 1920 census.

I sincerely hope that the passport application search is productive. So many Italian immigrants returned to "the old country" at least once in their lives; maybe you will get lucky.

[lowlight]

can one apply to the comune where their relative was born with similar documentation? They may be more sympathetic.....

[johnnyonthespot]

can one apply to the comune where their relative was born with similar documentation? They may be more sympathetic.....

If I understand correctly, you can apply in any comune. I don't know about the "more symapthetic" part however.

This subject (applying in Italy) can be found discussed in detail at the ExpatsInItaly forum, http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/viewforum.php?f=2

[johnnyonthespot]

This is a longshot, so sorry if my aim is way off:

Lowlight, do you have names for Alfredo's parents yet?

Looking at the 1900 census, a few lines above Alfredo are Peter and John Bartelli, both of whom entered the US in 1889 and are already naturalized.

Alfredo's manifest says he his coming to stay with his "2 uncles" with uncles crossed out and then "bro" or "bros" written above and Pietro + Giovanni written to the right.

Looking at their ages on the census and the fact that Peter is listed as the Head of Household, consider the possibility that Peter/Pietro is actually Alfredo's father. If he was - and depending on his exact age - then according to the pre-1912 citizenship rules, the moment Alfredo set foot in the US he would have become a US citizen derivatively (sp?) from his father. That might even explain why you can't find a naturalization record in Alfredo's name.

If the cost is not too high, it might be a good idea to check out Pietro's and maybe Giovanni's naturalization papers. Page 42 of this Dickenson County naturalization index ( http://www.michigan.gov/documents/hal_m ... 8640_7.pdf ) lists both Pietro and Giovanni Bartelli.

[lowlight]

thanks again Johnny, I want to research all options. A trip to my regional NARA is only an hour and a half away in Chicago. I may also chat w/ a professional researcher to get some feedback there. And there is always the LDS research centers.

[lowlight]

Alfredo's father is Caesar, he came to visit him in 1908 I found his arrival manifest on Ellis...

[johnnyonthespot]

Oh well, it was a good try.

[lowlight]

I see your thinking though, he gets here and does whatever his closest relative does where they did it. That being said, I looked at the naturalization records for the area he lived first and many of the surrounding areas.

[sceaminmonkey]

so if I am to understand correctly, if one has all of the No records letters it is required by the consulate to provide a census? and this is because if someone had a naturalized father in 1904 they basically became american when stepping off the boat?

[jennabet]

Carmine, what do you think of this?

I can understand the Consulate perhaps giving weight to the Census in this case (lowlights case). But in the case I'm working on, I cannot see the Consulate giving the Census any weight for these reasons:

1. Immigrant was illiterate -- from Calabria. He could not read or write Italian let alone English.

2. 1903 - signed a Declaration of Intentention.

3. 1910 Census -- claimed he was NA

4. 1912 - gave permission for his son to be married and made his mark (an X) on the marriage certificate (obviously still illiterate).

5. 1917 -- His son claims "Alien" on WWI draft card

6. 1920 Census -- Claims he is NA and gives date of NA as 1913. Why then did he claim on 1910 Census that he was NA if he didn't become NA until 1913?

The reason he claimed he was NA is because he thought filing a Declaration of Intention in 1903 was all that was required. Then when asked for a NA date on 1920 Census, he claims 1913 because this is exactly 10 years from filing of Declaration of intention.

Even today, every Alien's greencard is good for ten years afterwhich it must be renewed for another ten years, etc. until the Alien becomes a citizen. It was no different back then. Aliens had ten years to complete the process to citizenship after filing Declaration of Intention.

[DeFilippis78]

I think what Carmine is saying is regardless of the reasoning behind the documentation and circumstances and chances of it being wrong...the consulate doesnt care. What they see in front of them is what they consider. It stinks because it could be wrong, but what they have on their desk is what they look at.