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The surname of the groom is misspelled on family search. If you type it in like "Orazio Lobate," it should be the first hit on the results page.costante wrote:i just went to family search and couldn't find the entry you mentioned.where did you find it?
Yes, it's on the family search (the beta record site). Not sure if this will work, but here is a direct link to the record:costante wrote:the marriage to giuseppe logrippo in boston in 1905 was the first marriage.i have no idea who these other people are in the 1904 marriage.very odd that the name is similiar-and the mothers name was maria bonarrigo.let me check family search again.this is where you found it???
True, just thought I'd do a bit of digging and share the few things I found. I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for if you keep looking, things sometimes have a way of coming together in ways that you never expected when you find even just a tiny bit of new information.costante wrote:the bottom line is that none of this information leads me to what comune in messina maria bonarrigo and francesco laudino were born in-or where they married-or where francesco died.and thats what i'm looking for....
Ah, but you see you are looking at this with our modern western way of thinking about these things. In the days of our grandparents, it was a great shame to have a child out of wedlock. But it happened quite often. The women that had these babies were often forced by their family to take steps to maintain the honor of the family. The Italian law that was in place at the time facilitated this by allowing the women to remain legally "anonymous." By that I mean that on the birth record of an illegitimate child, the mother had the option of declining to be named. Most women did so, but this did not mean that they did not keep their babies. Some kept their baby and raised it as their own under the pretense that that had taken the child in at birth. So legally the child remained a foundling, even though it grew up with its own birth mother. My mother (who was born and raised in Italy) told me that this happened in many cases when a child was born out of wedlock. Sometimes everyone in the town knew the truth, but no one dared speak a word about it (at least not publicly).costante wrote:my grandmother considered maria bonarrigo her"mother'as she never knew her birth mother.also,on the 1902 passenger record,of which i have a copy,maria bonarrigo lists maria costante as her:adopted:daughter.if she were the natural mother,why would she state that?
Such is the plight of the family historian! Keep plugging along, I wish you the best of luck in your search.costante wrote:thanks.i appreciate your help.but as i said-nothing i've found to date has led me any closer to the information i need in messina.i need something solid-and even if there were a prior marriage to the 1905 one,theres nothing there to work with that would lead me to the information i'm seeking.unfortunate but true. john
I am familiar with this book, I borrowed it a couple years ago from the library and found it to be a very interesting and well written perspective, though there were some generalizations the author made that surprised me and I don't completely agree with. There was certainly pressure on the mothers of these babies to abandon them, though as I explained before in many cases this was sometimes accomplished simply by declining to be named on the birth record ("legal" abandonment). There were women who kept their babies and were not marginalized. My great-grandmother kept all three of her illegitimate children. She could not marry their father because she was married to another man, who had abandoned her. My great-grandfather (their father) declared the births of two of the children (as witness, not father), and the third (my grandmother) had her birth declared by the midwife. Parents were listed as "unknown" on all three births, which of course was completely untrue.costante wrote:i've done lots of research into this.theres an excelent book that you might have read"sacrificed for honor"by david kertzer,a proffessor at brown university in r.i.it details very carefully the whole system of infant abandonment in italy.very well written.lots of blame on the catholic church-which perpetuated this hypocritical system that protected men under the guise of protecting womans honor.a load of rubbish.and for future generations it killed family lineage research.
I can't speak to the specifics of your case, but my GGM came to the USA single, married at Ellis Island, her first husband died after a few years, then she was married again, for like a year, then got married to a different guy a few years later. I NEVER knew about the middle husband until I started doing research.costante wrote:i found the entries for both the marriage and death.i'll admit its close.my grandmother was born in 1883,a year earlier than the entry.but the name is close(costanti,costante)and the mother's name maria bonarrigo.but i think mention would have been made of this somehow.my grandmother arrived in boston with maria bonarrigo in 1902,would have been married in 1903,given birth and lost both a child and husband by 1904-and remarried by 1905!even if i had a copy of that 1903 marriage i'd need more evidence-like a pace of birth saying more than"italy"which is all they ever give.like barcellona.
I agree, those who were the most defenseless and innocent, the children, were the ones who bore the heavy burden of stigma that was associated with illegitimacy. When my grandmother was married, and then again on her death certificate, the officials wrote "di genitori ignoti" and "figlia di N.N." on the records, even though my grandmother was raised in a happy household that included both of her natural parents. Even though she was recognized by her parents when they married later in life, the official made an error, because the act of recognition was included only on the bottom of the marriage act of my great-grandparents .... it was never written on my grandmother's birth act.costante wrote:no doubt the birth parents of these children were known.but this system did everyone a great injustice.both the parents and children-as well as future genealogists.
I don't pretend to know the first thing about your family or grandmother.... but from an outsider's perspective, these statements do not quite line up. A heavy burden..... that doesn't matter?tinagrenier wrote:I agree, those who were the most defenseless and innocent, the children, were the ones who bore the heavy burden of stigma that was associated with illegitimacy.
Interestingly, my grandmother never spoke of any of this. She loved her parents and her two brothers very much, as far as she was concerned that's all that mattered.
I never said that the burden was something that doesn't matter.blissiorio wrote:I don't pretend to know the first thing about your family or grandmother.... but from an outsider's perspective, these statements do not quite line up. A heavy burden..... that doesn't matter?
Very true John, it was very common and poses a big problem to the genealogist when nothing is known about the parents and the parents names are not listed on the birth record. You said there is a story that your grandmother was somehow related to Maria Bonarrigo. Do you know anything more about that?costante wrote:you researchers out there not having to deal with"ignoti genitori"don't know how fortunate you are!!!its so common that not to have it crop up in your grandparents or ggrandparents lines is nothing short of astounding.and for some odd reason,it seems to be more common with the females than the males.seen so much of it in my research!!!!