Help please with death record

[jkingb]

Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".

Thank you!

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?
Normally first name and then middle name, but sometimes errors are made. In this case the father is Carlo Giovanni FRESCA. Maddalina was the widow of Gabriele Calcagno.

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?
What it seems to say is that she was the daughter of the late Carlo Giovanni, farmer who lived (during life time) in Noli and the late “Signora surname and name of the mother” who lived in Noli (during life time). It doesn't make sense. Someone else might expand on this and give a truer translation.

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".
Yes, I believe it refers to Noli in the province of Savona. (The "I" is definitely dotted but sometimes errors are made as well. You would need to find Maddalina's birth record to be sure.) It is saying that Maddalina was born in Noli but was living in Gassino when she died. The two towns these days are about two hours away from each other.

Thank you!

[jkingb]

Yes, it's actually "Frasca".. I had a typo -meant to write that name but wrote Calcagno instead!

The death occurred in Gassino, that is correct - where the family lived. Unfortunately, I won't be able to find her birth record, because it is too old, and Noli records aren't available online or in microfilm format at LDS.

[jkingb]

EDIT: I had a mistake/typo in question # 1. Here is the corrected version.

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Frasca or Giovanni Carlo Frasca?

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?
Normally first name and then middle name, but sometimes errors are made. In this case the father is Carlo Giovanni FRASCA. Maddalina was the widow of Gabriele Calcagno.

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?
What it seems to say is that she was the daughter of the late Carlo Giovanni, farmer who lived (during life time) in Noli and the late “Signora surname and name of the mother” who lived in Noli (during life time). It doesn't make sense. Someone else might expand on this and give a truer translation.

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".
Yes, I believe it refers to Noli in the province of Savona. (The "I" is definitely dotted but sometimes errors are made as well. You would need to find Maddalina's birth record to be sure.) It is saying that Maddalina was born in Noli but was living in Gassino when she died. The two towns these days are about two hours away from each other.

Thank you!

Whoops, I typed an E instead of an A. Must be the day for typo's!

[AngelaGrace56]

Yes, it's actually "Frasca".. I had a typo -meant to write that name but wrote Calcagno instead!

The death occurred in Gassino, that is correct - where the family lived. Unfortunately, I won't be able to find her birth record, because it is too old, and Noli records aren't available online or in microfilm format at LDS.

Yes, that is correct, records for Noli don't seem to be on line. I checked after my initial reply to see if I could help you find the record. Someone else on the forum might have some ideas. I noticed that there are some records for Nole. Someone on the forum might suggest that it was more likely she was born there (? I don't think so though). Anyways, in the case that they did, there are marriage records on line for that town.

Angela

[jkingb]

Thanks. I did check Nole just in case (randomly picked the 1808 BMD register):

http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=-

No instances of that surname in the index. So I think it's safe to assume the town is Noli in Savona. That complicates things...

[liviomoreno]

About question #2: the name of the mother was unknown to the persons declaring the death.
The wording is "dalla fu s'ignora il cognome e nome della madre, in vita domiciliata in Noli", which translates: "the surname and the name of the deceased mother, domiciled, during her life in Noli, are not known"

[AngelaGrace56]

About question #2: the name of the mother was unknown to the persons declaring the death.
The wording is "dalla fu s'ignora il cognome e nome della madre, in vita domiciliata in Noli", which translates: "the surname and the name of the deceased mother, domiciled, during her life in Noli, are not known"

Thank you Livio. This certainly makes sense now. I didn't even notice the apostrophe. There are also the words "ignaro" and "ignoto" which we see a lot in our records e.g. "padre ignoto" (father unknown). They all seem to have the same or similar meanings?

Angela

[liviomoreno]

Usually the wording "di genitori ignoti" means that the person is a foundling. If you instead read "si ignora il nome dei genitori" it means that the person writing the act does not know the names.

[AngelaGrace56]

Usually the wording "di genitori ignoti" means that the person is a foundling. If you instead read "si ignora il nome dei genitori" it means that the person writing the act does not know the names.

Oh, I see, thank you very much Livio. It becomes very clear when someone else explains it. I'll write it in my dictionary.

Angela

[jkingb]

Thank you both! I was thinking that the name was probably unknown to the person reporting the information. The decedent was 88 years old, so this information may have been forgotten (by even her own kids, as it appears that one of her sons is listed at the bottom)..

As for # 2, I asked because I am trying to match several records, and the first name of the decedent's father, according to another record, should be Giovanni - here Giovanni is the middle name. I have good reason to believe the records match, so I wondered if the order (first, middle) was sometimes reversed..

Noli must refer to the comune in Savona.

[PippoM]

The order can be reversed, in the sense that up to about 1900, use was more important the documents themselves. So it might happen that someone was given name at birth, for instance, Tizio Caio, but his family called him Caio; in later documents, you might find him referenced to as Caio, or even Caio Tizio, to keep track of the original name. This is quite common above all with female names formed by Maria followed by another name (Maria Rosaria, Maria Teresa).

[jkingb]

Thank you for your input Pippo! It seems that even in this case (Giovanni/Carlo) a reversal occurred.