re:palermo birth indexes online

[mezzogiorno62]

i know theres a database for palermo marriages 1820-1895 online at ancestry.but is there an online index for palermo births in the same time period? i no longer do the lds films and if i can find a birth in palermo,possibly in 1820,i can request a copy of it from lds photoduplication.at no charge they will send copies by email attachment-as long as you supply the complete information for them to look it up.theres some online births available for palermo(1876-1885 and 1896-1905),but theyre much later.not in the time period i'm researching.if anyone does know of such a database let me know.thanks

[Marcello_DAleo]

The birth indexes of Palermo 1820-1895, except those you mentioned, are not available online. But since I live in Palermo and consult them often, I can do the research for you

[mezzogiorno62]

thanks marcello.my ancestor,salvatore landino,was born in palermo,possibly in santa oliva,in either 1820 or 1819.if the birth isnt found in 1820 then it would probably be in whatever parish served that section in 1819.he died in new york in 1884 age 64 so this is how i figure he was born in either 1820 or 1819,as his 65th birthday may not have come up yet.io can request a copy of the record from lds photoduplication if i can confirm an 1820 birth.if not then its an 1819 parish record.as salvatore married rosalia mancuso in santa oliva in 1839,age 19(i have that record)its probable he was born in santa oliva.

[Marcello_DAleo]

Salvatore Landino (or Lannino) is not listed in the Palermo Birth Index 1820-1835. The fact that Salvatore married Rosalia Mancuso in the section Sant'Oliva means the bride lived in that section. The marriage was celebrated in the bride's parish church. So you can't be sure about what parish church or section Salvatore was from. Since they married in 1839, you can consult the marriage "Allegati" (attachements) of that year and section, and there you can find Salvatore's baptism certificate.

[mezzogiorno62]

thanks marcello.i figured that,at age 19,he wouldn't have strayed too far from his birthplace,and that santa oliva was probably his birthplace as well as his marriage place.his wife,rosalia,was several years older than him,and born definitely before civil registation.i have his 1839 marriage record,and all it states is that he was born in palermo,district of palermo.thats the problem with pre civil registration parish records.the same applies with mainland civil records,which started in 1809(my paternal grandfather was from avellino in campania).any research in sicily before 1820 and mainland italy before 1809 involves knowing which parish an ancestor originated in.and how is it possible to know this 200 years after the fact? its not so bad in tiny villages where there was only 1 parish(my grandfather was born in luogosano,a village of maybe 1000 and the only parish was s.maria maggiore e s.marcellino)but in large cities like barcellona pozzo di gotto(where my paternal grandmother was born,and which had countless parishes-i was fortunate to get her baptismal certificate from s.sebastiano)it's not so easy.even harder in palermo,which,like new york city,is broken up into sections.so,for most of us,italian research stops before civil registration.no way to know the parish of origin,especially as parishes that may have existed then may no longer exist.thanks again marcello.i appreciate all your help.happy thanksgiving day.its thanksgiving here in the usa.i'm going over to my paternal italian cousins for dinner today and update those interested members in their family history.the family members in my age group(i'm 65)can appreciate it.not so sure about the younger ones.sports seem to be their preference lol.

[Marcello_DAleo]

no way to know the parish of origin,especially as parishes that may have existed then may no longer exist

The archives of the 11 ancient parish churches of Palermo are all still existing, and in good condiction (except one) and the most ancient documents date from the year 1474!

[mezzogiorno62]

interesting.but like i said,most italian americans(i'm 3rd generation on my fathers side.my paternal grandparents,antonio ricco and maria costante, were born in avellino and messina.my mothers lines arent italian-french canadian)can only go back to their grandparents or great grandparents with any knowledge of what parish their ancestors originated in.i know my grandparents parishes.both in luogosano avellino and barcellona pg messina.as my grandfathers village was so tiny it wasnt hard to establish the parish of his parents births and marriage as the same one of his baptism(s.maria maggiore e s.marcellino in 1870).my grandmother was problematic.although she was born in barcellona pg(s.sebastiano 1883)she was born ignoti genitori.her surrogate parents never married,and her surrogate mother,maria bonarrigo, was born in gualtieri sicamino frazione di soccorso,her surrogate father in palermo(this salvatore landino i'm researching is the father of my grandmothers surrogate father francesco).i know some researchers claim they can trace family back centuries through parish records.how they can do this i have no idea,as parishes rarely if ever respond to written requests(in 20 years i've recieved only 2-the marriage of my 2nd great grandparents on my grandfathers side in lapio avellino in 1803 and my grandmothers baptism in barcellona pg in 1883)and parish records arent available online at lds.in quebec canada,where my maternal ancestors originated after arriving from france in the 17th and 18th centuries,parish records and civil records are one and the same,not separate as in italian records.the parish and civil records are duplicates.and the icing on the cake is,these records,called the drouin film collection,are available at ancestry online in a searchable database which can be accessed by name or parish,and cover the years 1620 or so from the founding of the colony up to 1940!if only italian research was set up like this!

[Marcello_DAleo]

i know some researchers claim they can trace family back centuries through parish records.how they can do this i have no idea,as parishes rarely if ever respond to written requests

I don't know how the other researchers do, but I keep in touch with the priests, fix an appointment and go in person to do the research.

[mezzogiorno62]

unless theyre in italy and have time and access,i have no idea how someone in the usa like myself could accomplish this.unless they have family there able to help,or they can afford to pay a proffessional.i have to do any of my research on my own.endless letter writing and whatever is available online.i gave up lds films years ago as it became expensive and yielded few if any results for the efforts and expenses.lds photoduplication will send email attachments of filmed records free of charge,providing you can provide exact information for the lookup(they dont do research,just make copies of the record when and if found).and i heard this service is ending soon.i just try and do the best i can with what i have to work with.this is why i'll also try to help any researcher just starting out or try to contribute any information i have available.try to be fair and grateful for the help i've recieved.like yours.

[mezzogiorno62]

i checked the lds films for allegati in santa oliva in 1839.these records are spread out over 4 films,if the information was on one film i could request a photoduplication copy of the record.but they won't check all 4.how much different could it be from the original marriage record,of which i have a copy? its odd that the copy i have wouldnt note the sezione of palermo he was from if it were different from santa oliva.if you checked the births in palermo 1820-1895 and didnt find salvatores birth record,then most likely he was born before then,probably in 1819.before civil registration.and that comes down to parish records.

[Marcello_DAleo]

how much different could it be from the original marriage record,of which i have a copy?

The difference is that the "Allegati" are not the marriage records, but the collection of all the documents and certificates that the future spouses had to provide to marry. Including birth certificates (if born after 1820) or baptism certificates (if born before 1820), parents' death certificates, marriage banns certificates...

[mezzogiorno62]

i understand.its not important that i get his birth record.just trying to narrow the year down.i would say its probably 1819 as he's not found in the records starting with 1820.if lds ever digitizes these records and puts them online it would be great.i could do virtually all my research that way.too many issues regarding rights.palermo records before 1866 arent available online-i notice this.many italian records at lds,especially in sicily,are only available after 1865.the pre 1865 records can be found at www.antenati@beniculturali.it.palermo isnt at that site either.messina province is.i thought that as lds has done all the filming in italy that they would have the rights to digitize as they see fit-and that the civil offices in italy would be happy with that.it would allow italian americans access to their genealogy in much the same way the drouin films in quebec canada,available at ancestry, allows those of french canadian ancestry to access their heritage.but this isnt the case,with most of the parish records and many of the civil records as well.another example is the province of avellino,my grandfathers province of origin.most of the comunes in his area,including his birthplace,are no more than tiny hamlets of 1000 or less.yet all lds has been able to digitize are a few comunes in the vicinity of his birthplace-not his.there are several comunes that i would be able to research online-all in the vicinity of the ones that have been digitized.unfortunately the comunes i'm interested in havent been done.no updates are available.it appears its hit and miss regarding what italian records will and won't appear online.