1948 Case with Luigi Paiano

[cvmadd]

Hi all!

Some of you may or may not remember me posting....well....about 6mos or so ago about having emailed Luigi to start this process. Well, I finally have made a little more progress, but also have another question!

Essentially, we were always under the impression that my nonna never naturalized (both of my grandparents came over here from Italy in/around the 1920s). We got confirmation fairly quickly from the local court/branch that there were no naturalization papers for her, but then, of course, we had to wait for USCIS to do their own search. And they found a record for her father's naturalization, which occurred 3 months before her 18th birthday in 1923. So, since prior to 1929 children gained US citizenship when their parents naturalized, technically my nonna became a citizen automatically when he naturalized. Hmmmm.....Here's the actual language USCIS sent to me: "Prior to March 1929, children gained the citizenship of their naturalizing parents. Therefore Yolanda [Yolanda Bertolino, my nonna] became a US citizen upon Giovanni [her father] 1923 naturalization. There is no evidence that Yolanda applied for a certificate of citizenship in her own name."

I'm wondering if this means we can't make the case with Luigi now.....thoughts? Anyone else run into anything like this? Think there's any hope that, since she never applied herself/relinquished her Italian citizenship on her own, we still have a chance?

Any ideas, musings, and/or information would be so appreciated! Thanks for reading.....and also for posting on this board! It's been amazing to keep up with all these journeys!

[Qliner]

Hi Cvmadd,

I'm trying to understand:

Your nonna (grandmother) and grandfather came to US in 1920s
Your grandmother never naturalized
Your grandmother's father naturalized while she was under 18 ? So he was already in the US when she got here?

I think that she was already an Italian citizen by the time he was naturalized even though she was under 18 at the time and didn't lose it. But your time line is very confusing. Can you lay it out more clearly?

When was your parent born?

[Qliner]

I have a question for a friend:

His Grandmother came to US in the 20's from Italy, she was 5 yrs old
Married in US
Had a female child in the 1950s (his mother)

Assuming his grandmother or mother never naturalized or denounced, does he qualify for citizenship?

[cvmadd]

Hi Cvmadd,

I'm trying to understand:

Your nonna (grandmother) and grandfather came to US in 1920s
Your grandmother never naturalized
Your grandmother's father naturalized while she was under 18 ? So he was already in the US when she got here?

I think that she was already an Italian citizen by the time he was naturalized even though she was under 18 at the time and didn't lose it. But your time line is very confusing. Can you lay it out more clearly?

When was your parent born?

Hi Qliner!

Thanks for your reply! Sorry I guess my post wasn't really so clear! Maybe this will help:

-My grandmother comes to the US in 1921, her father has been here for a few years already.
-My great-grandfather (her father) naturalizes in 1923, apparently making her a US citizen since she is a minor.*
-My grandmother and grandfather meet and marry in the US in 1928, my grandfather is not a US citizen/is still an Italian citizen.
-My grandfather naturalizes in 1935.
-My mother is born in 1946
*(my grandmother never files/requests to file her own citizenship papers)

So, essentially, my grandmother followed her father (my great grandfather) over here a few years after he came, and apparently he naturalized in 1923, which automatically gave her US citizenship. But I'm a bit confused because basically, as USCIS pointed out to me, there's no record of her ever filing her own paperwork for citizenship (ie never voluntarily giving up her Italian citizenship herself). Luigi said that, if my grandfather gave up Italian citizenship before my mother was born, as long as my grandmother never did my mother could claim Italian citizenship through her mother (and then I could too through mine).....but hmmmmm I guess I'm wondering if the fact that my grandmother was a minor when her father naturalized messes with that?

[Qliner]

I don't think it matters that your grandmother was a minor actually as Luigi said if she never naturalized (even though your grandfather did), she passes citizenship to you. However, because your mother was born in 1946 before the 1948 rule was revoked, then your grandmother wasn't able to pass citizenship to her, hence you would in fact need Luigi's team to sue for your citizenship. You seem good to go to me, but I think you'll need the birth cert of your grandmother (from Italy) which if you don't have, Luigi can get, and your mother.

[zamanka]

We've got an update on our case after the first hearing. Anyone knows what that means? Google translate isn't helpful in this case

26/01/2017 - RINVIO CON TERMINI (ex art. 183 cpc comma 6)
30/01/2017 - ANNOTAZIONE

[cvmadd]

Hi all,

I thought I'd do a follow-up post with regard to my question from above. Essentially, I heard back from Luigi and he said that, since my grandmother was automatically granted citizenship as a minor when her father naturalized in 1923 (this law was changed in March, 1929)...we can't go forward with our case. Even though she never completed the final act of filing for her own citizenship papers when she became an adult (which apparently people were supposed to do in the 1920's) about a year or so later.

Obviously I'm incredibly disappointed as we've spent years even trying to get to this point. I wrote back to Luigi to see if there was any chance of making the case that she never voluntarily surrendered her Italian citizenship herself....but we'll see what he says. I guess it's probably a long shot, though I think we'd be open to trying (maybe?!)....fingers crossed!!!

[jennabet]

-My great-grandfather (her father) naturalizes in 1923, apparently making her a US citizen since she is a minor.*

End of story. You're not qualified. And it doesn't matter where your grand-mother was living when her father naturalized. If she was a minor at the time, she lost her Italian citizenship at the exact same time he did. USCIS has no paperwork on her because as a person who was already naturalized through her father, there was no need for her to become naturalized again.

[OpusReticulatum]

Ciao cvmadd.

There might be one glimmer of hope here. I don't want to get your hopes up unrealistically . . . but please run this scenario by Avv. Paiano just in case.

Let's go through what you posted.

-My grandmother comes to the US in 1921, her father has been here for a few years already.

So far so good. Your grandmother was an Italian citizen at birth, apparently. As long as your great-grandfather hadn't naturalized in the US yet, she's still an Italian citizen.

-My great-grandfather (her father) naturalizes in 1923, apparently making her a US citizen since she is a minor.*

This is where the trouble comes in. Your great-grandfather naturalized while his daughter (your grandmother) was still a minor. That triggered an automatic loss of your grandmother's Italian citizenship. It doesn't matter if she didn't go to a citizenship ceremony, sign any papers, or ever obtain a certificate of citizenship. At that time, the parent's citizenship decided the citizenship of their foreign-born children.

So, at this point, your grandmother lost her Italian citizenship, gained US citizenship, and only held US citizenship. She was no longer Italian, according to the Italian government.

Normally, all hope of going through your grandmother would be lost at this point.

But then there's this part of the story:

-My grandmother and grandfather meet and marry in the US in 1928, my grandfather is not a US citizen/is still an Italian citizen.

Your grandfather was an Italian citizen when he married your (previously Italian) grandmother.

This is where the hope comes in.

Prior to to 27 April 1983, foreign women (ie, non-Italian women) who married men who were Italian citizens automatically gained Italian citizenship at the moment of marriage.

Your grandmother, as a woman who held only US citizenship, should have been considered a foreign (non-Italian) woman when she married your grandfather. This means that it's possible (or likely) that she gained Italian citizenship upon marrying your grandfather.

-My grandfather naturalizes in 1935.

While your grandfather's naturalization in 1935 cuts off your ability to go through him for citizenship recognition, it does establish that he was an Italian citizen in 1928 when he married your grandmother (as long as you have the relevant certificates to back up the dates in this chain of events).

Your grandfather's naturalization does not have an effect on your grandmother's (possible/likely) Italian citizenship gained through marriage. She would remain both an Italian citizen and US citizen.

-My mother is born in 1946

Since your mother was born to a woman who (possibly/likely) gained Italian citizenship via marriage in 1928, and still held it in 1946, then your mother was born to a woman who held Italian citizenship (an Italian woman), and therefore would, herself, be Italian, and so would you be as well. Since this was prior to 01 January 1948, your claim would still have to go through the courts as a "1948 case."



Again, this is how I see it. There might be some finer point of Italian citizenship law that I am missing, but to me it looks like it might work.

Please run this scenario by Avv. Paiano before considering yourself completely cut off from recognition of Italian citizenship.

Buona fortuna!

[Ledman]

Hello everyone.
I have happily received a first court date of June 22nd. After being submitted into the court system in early October. The judge will be MONICA VELLETTI. Has anyone else had any experience with this judge? Warmest Regards- Ledman.

[tc86]

I'm sure someone here has experienced this — any insight much appreciated.

I have been in contact with Luigi Paiano about obtaining Italian citizenship in a 1948 case through my grandmother. Unfortunately, the name she used on naturalization in the US ("Rose Natalie") doesn't exactly match what's on her Italian birth certificate ("Rosa Natala"). It appears to be virtually impossible to correct US naturalization records barring proof of a clerical error, and since she became a US citizen in 1964, that's going to be hard to prove. (Incidentally, her Americanized name is also on her marriage certificate and my dad's birth certificate, but those are much easier to amend.)

Has anyone found this to be a major impediment to winning a 1948 case in the past? Tons of Italian immigrants Americanized their names, probably most without formally changing them, so I have to think someone else has faced this. Would love any input. Thanks.

[Qliner]

OpusReticulatum,

That was a wonderful response, thanks for laying that out for cvmadd!!! It sounds like there may be hope yet! I'm curious to know what Luigi says. Sorry I was incorrect on the 1929 rule. Good luck, cmvadd, please keep us posted!

[Qliner]

the name she used on naturalization in the US ("Rose Natalie") doesn't exactly match what's on her Italian birth certificate ("Rosa Natala").

I had numerous name discrepancy issues as well and it all worked out. In my case, my mother's name in the US and on all her documentation is Alice Catherine D'Onofrio and in a few places Alice Catherine Frances D'Onofrio. Since she was a victim of the 1948 rule, her naturalization document wasn't needed. However, once we got her birth cert from her comune, the name on it was Francesca Luisa D'Onofrio! I had to show that it was the same person based on the birth dates and location on the various documents. That was problematic too since she would change her bday on a whim making herself younger! We got past the birthday issue with corrections and had to hope the judge would understand based on her birthday, her parents, and birth location that Francesca Luisa and Alice Catherine Frances were the same person. It turned out to be NO PROBLEM.

In your case, the name is the same just in different languages, I can't see how it would be a problem. What does Luigi say?

[tc86]

In your case, the name is the same just in different languages, I can't see how it would be a problem. What does Luigi say?

Her marriage certificate has the wrong middle name ("Ann") and birthday, so he asked to have that corrected. I asked him if it made sense to go ahead and try to update my dad's birth certificate, which also has Rose Natalie instead of Rosa Natala, and he said it could only help, so I will probably do that.

The biggest hurdle there looks like it's going to be getting my grandmother's birth certificate translated from Italian to English so the various vital records departments that need to make the corrections know what they're looking at. Still, that should be a solvable problem.

The naturalization certificate we're just going to have to live with as-is, I think. Your experience gives me reason to hope it's not a major impediment.

[Qliner]

Luigi has a translator in Italy that he uses and she's very good and reasonable cost. I used her for a about 15 - 20 documents. I did have to have one document translated here (can't remember why now) and so I found a translator on my state's .gov site and he had it notarized (an added statement that it was a good translation to the best of his knowledge and ability or something like that). The I had to get an apostille for that.