Please Help Me Read These Two Names

[Pagano / Tria]

I don't what number child it is, all I know is what is on that document, so I wanted to see if I could use it to dig one more step deeper.

[AngelaGrace56]

I've had a look through the marriage records and don't see a marriage record for Aurelio Massimo and Maria Susca.

I've found the following 1852 Birth Record for a son, Giovanni Antonio Massimo, born to 28 yo (1824) Aurelio Massimo and 29 yo (1823) Maria Susca. Personally, I don't think that Aurelia, alias Valerio, knew his own age, nor his wife's. Often they didn't, and I've seen some really interesting age variations given by fathers in birth records. I would suggest that Aurelio Massimo and Valerio are the same people, and that he went by the name Aurelio as he grew up??? It's just a suggestion at this stage, and hopefully looking at other records will help to confirm, or not. I know that it's really frustrating when things don't sit neatly on paper. I have a similar thing with one of my grgrgrgr8s. He was suppose to be Michelangelo but instead turned out to be Santo. (It was such a bug bare at the time.)

Maybe someone else with a fresh perspective can offer further help. I hope so. All for now. Best to you.

1852 Birth Record Giovanni Antonio Massimo: http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0

Edit to Add:

Here is possibly the first child born to this couple:

Birth No 110: Modesto Massimo born 25 August 1844
Parents: Aurelio Massimo, 22 yo (1822) and Maria Teresa Susca
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... 1.jpg.html

Looking for Aurelio's death record would be an interesting find. It should have his parents names on it or possibly "genitori ignoti". Going by the annotation on Modesto's birth record, I am understanding that Aurelio had died prior to 25 September 1873.


Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Here's Aurelio Massimo's Death Record:

Death Record No 93: Aurelio Massimo
Turi: 31 August 1859, 1 pm

Aurelio Massimo, husband of Maria Susca, 34 yo (1825), contadino, living in Turi, son of "genitori incerti" died on 30 August 1859, 11 pm.

http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=0

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

Angela

WOW Amazing!! You are absolutely brilliant, thank you so much for helping crack this case! This is a very sad story, but I'm glad to have figured it out.

Going back to the diversi document that records Aurelio/Valerio being discovered, I can make out that he was wrapped in rags and left on the doorstep of midwife Giacoma Rosa di Nicolo on 24 April 1820, so I will put that as his birthdate. I can also read that he was named Valerio Massimo and given to Maria Rosa Ventrella as an adopted child.

But I'm confused by where Massimo comes from as I don't see a father listed. My Italian is very elementary and it's hard to read, so I assume I'm missing something again. After it states his given name it just talks about who was present for the decision, no?

[AngelaGrace56]

Angela

WOW Amazing!! You are absolutely brilliant, thank you so much for helping crack this case! This is a very sad story, but I'm glad to have figured it out. So pleased that I could help - a privilege. Yes very sad, and so sad also that he died so young and left a young family.

Going back to the diversi document that records Aurelio/Valerio being discovered, I can make out that he was wrapped in rags and left on the doorstep of midwife Giacoma Rosa di Nicolo on 24 April 1820, so I will put that as his birthdate. I can also read that he was named Valerio Massimo and given to Maria Rosa Ventrella as an adopted child. (I've quickly typed up what I'm understanding, as I reread the document, and will post below.)

But I'm confused by where Massimo comes from as I don't see a father listed. My Italian is very elementary and it's hard to read, so I assume I'm missing something again. After it states his given name it just talks about who was present for the decision, no? There is no father mentioned. He was a foundling and it seems like the parents, even the mother did not want him to know who she was. Read below.

Basically I'm understanding what you have said that the person declaring the birth was Giacoma Rosa di Nicola, midwife, living in the town, who reported that today (24 April 1820), at 8 am she found behind the door of her house a baby born the same (so today) which seemed to have been abandoned, wrapped in rags, without signs (e.g. ribbon, medal, .. anything that would have been able to identify the baby if the parents later wanted to claim him as their own), ..... there are some words I can't quite make out (am a little rushed here) ..... and I understand that it says that after the official checked the baby, saw that it was a male, without any signs (estimated) his age to be about three days old?

They then ordered that the child be given over to Maria Rosa Ventrella (it looks like it says to foster the child but maybe it is saying to nurse the child – anyway to raise the child, I guess. I don't think he was adopted, as such.)

Then towards the end it is just the witnesses to the declaration and proceedings. On the right hand column of course are the baptism details.

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

Angela

There is no father mentioned. He was a foundling and it seems like the parents, even the mother did not want him to know who she was. Read below.[/color]

They then ordered that the child be given over to Maria Rosa Ventrella (it looks like it says to foster the child but maybe it is saying to nurse the child – anyway to raise the child, I guess. I don't think he was adopted, as such.)

Angela

What I meant by father was wondering if it meant he was adopted by Maria Rosa Ventrella and her husband, but since there is no husband of Maria mentioned and you don't think he was adopted I suppose it was just to nurse the child only?

Would he have been put in some sort of orphanage then? I'm just wondering if I should list Maria Rosa Ventrella as his adoptive parent in my tree or leave is as UNKNOWN. It seems strange they would force a foundling on a single parent, so perhaps it is implied he was never truly adopted, and if he were raised by an adoptive couple perhaps they would've been listed on his future documents...

[AngelaGrace56]

There is no father mentioned. He was a foundling and it seems like the parents, even the mother did not want him to know who she was. Read below.[/color]

They then ordered that the child be given over to Maria Rosa Ventrella (it looks like it says to foster the child but maybe it is saying to nurse the child – anyway to raise the child, I guess. I don't think he was adopted, as such.)

Angela

What I meant by father was wondering if it meant he was adopted by Maria Rosa Ventrella and her husband, but since there is no husband of Maria mentioned and you don't think he was adopted I suppose it was just to nurse the child only?

Would he have been put in some sort of orphanage then? I'm just wondering if I should list Maria Rosa Ventrella as his adoptive parent in my tree or leave is as UNKNOWN. It seems strange they would force a foundling on a single parent, so perhaps it is implied he was never truly adopted, and if he were raised by an adoptive couple perhaps they would've been listed on his future documents...

Something doesn't quite make sense to me. It's interesting that the midwife declared the child to have been born on the same day which would have meant that he was only few hours old. Then the official has said that he was three days old? The baby needed to be fed - who was feeding him for three days (his birth mother or ....)? A new born, only hours old, and a three day old baby are somewhat different.

For the baby to be handed over to Maria Rosa Ventrella she herself would have had to be suckling a baby or maybe her own baby had died?

Anyways I'm still thinking about it and will take another look at some records later. I'm having an "in and out" day today.

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

I was wondering the same thing. No rush, I greatly appreciate all of your insight! If you find anything new or have any new ideas let me know.

Valerio/Aurelio's daughter that I descend from is named Maria Rosa, so I wonder if Ventrella raised him and he named his child after his adoptive mother? Or, if she just nursed him for a time and then he was placed in an orphanage of some sort, is it just coincidence?

The big mystery is where did the cognome Massimo come from if there was no father figure?

[AngelaGrace56]

I was wondering the same thing. No rush, I greatly appreciate all of your insight! If you find anything new or have any new ideas let me know.

Valerio/Aurelio's daughter that I descend from is named Maria Rosa, so I wonder if Ventrella raised him and he named his child after his adoptive mother? That certainly makes sense to me. How could a strong bond and deep love not develop between a wetnurse and the child she suckles and vice versa. Or, if she just nursed him for a time and then he was placed in an orphanage of some sort, is it just coincidence?

The big mystery is where did the cognome Massimo come from if there was no father figure? I believe it was a foundling name. Basically the official assigned him that name. I noticed that when I was going through the various indices that I only came across about three surnames "Massimo". Anyways, I've been working on this and have found a really interesting and signifcant article. Read below.

Look what I've just found. I think that you will find it very interesting and hopefully it will answer some of your questions: http://www.corrierepl.it/2015/03/14/la- ... ti-a-turi/

Interesting, that it seems that the name Valerio Massimo was used more than once for a foundling? Like I have mentioned I noticed as I was going through the indices that there were very few Massimo's listed and thought that it would probably be a foundling surname.

Interesting that Rosa Maria Ventrella is listed here as one of the 'balie' or 'Nutrici' (a professional suckler). So she would have been an oncall person that would suckle babies and was paid a small amount to do so.

What I'm understanding is that Valerio would have stayed with Maria Rosa until about eight years and then probably worked for a living. It seems like the name Aurelio was possibily a Ventrella family name. (Based only on the fact that I came across an 1820 marriage record for an Aurelia Ventrella. I should really find more evidence though.)

It seems like it's starting to come together.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Here is some really good information about the balia or wet nurse, which I thought you may find helpful. Another one of our volunteers, Erudita, has written this on a previous forum. She explains the balia so much better than I have:

"...Maria Rosa .... was a balia or wetnurse. The infant was assigned to her. Wetnurses who were external-that is, they did the wet nursing in their own homes, were given a stipend by their towns for their service. Poor peasant women who had recently given birth, or who had recently lost a child, would often serve in the capacity of an external wetnurse, as they welcomed the money they received for their service, regardless of how little it was. It's hard to say how long ..(the child).. stayed with this wetnurse and her husband. Sometimes the balia's service only lasted until foster parents could be found for the infant. Formal adoption was an extremely rare occurrence.

Erudita"

https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... ia#p265935

Hopefully you have read my previous post here as well.

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

Look what I've just found. I think that you will find it very interesting and hopefully it will answer some of your questions: http://www.corrierepl.it/2015/03/14/la- ... ti-a-turi/

Interesting, that it seems that the name Valerio Massimo was used more than once for a foundling? Like I have mentioned I noticed as I was going through the indices that there were very few Massimo's listed and thought that it would probably be a foundling surname.

Interesting that Rosa Maria Ventrella is listed here as one of the 'balie' or 'Nutrici' (a professional suckler). So she would have been an oncall person that would suckle babies and was paid a small amount to do so.

What I'm understanding is that Valerio would have stayed with Maria Rosa until about eight years and then probably worked for a living. It seems like the name Aurelio was possibily a Ventrella family name. (Based only on the fact that I came across an 1820 marriage record for an Aurelia Ventrella. I should really find more evidence though.)

It seems like it's starting to come together.

Angela

Amazing that you found an article with him in it! It appears whoever wrote the article made a mistake when pasting the copied list of names, which is why Valerio Massimo appears several times instead of just once. They had no idea then he would be on the internet now, that's for sure. Too bad the wheel wasn't installed for another 14 years and he had to be placed on the doorstep.

It's possible Maria Rosa Ventella knew Valerio grew up to name his daughter after her, but I bet she had no idea Maria Rosa Massimo would one day move to Connecticut!

I've learned a lot thanks to your help, thanks again!

[AngelaGrace56]

You are so welcome. I've really enjoyed the process.

Did you notice that it also mentioned the midwife "Giacoma Rosa Di Nicolo" as being the "midwife and pious receiver". The article is obviously tailored for you. I came across it by just googling "Maria Rosa Ventrella da Turi" Good old google! Initially I was thinking she was somehow related to Valerio but I don't think so now.

Re the wheel – not so good things happened sometimes. Older children were sometimes placed there and became very hurt in the process of turning the wheel and even died - so tragic.

You might be interested in reading a really good book called "Sacrificed for Honor" by David I Kertzer. It is so revealing and quite hard hitting. It's about abandoned children in Italia and covers quite a few questions you have asked. I've never finished reading the book because I found it quite disturbing. I might have another attempt over Easter because it is very informative about this matter.

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

Yes, her legacy has survived! I'm amazed such specific information has been preserved and posted from such a small town. I am excited to show my grandma the history of her great-great grandfather. Both that wheel and that book seem fairly harrowing...

I've enjoyed this process of discovery with you as well. I'm sure as I continue digging I'll have another question to bother you will soon haha!

[AngelaGrace56]

I've enjoyed this process of discovery with you as well. I'm sure as I continue digging I'll have another question to bother you will soon haha!

No bother at all. I love it when these little twists pop up in these records, which give the opportunity to solve a mystery. Always happy to help whenever I'm able, and there is always plenty of other good people here, as well, happy to assist.

Best to you.

Angela

[Pagano / Tria]

Can someone please help me figure this out? It appears that the note in the margin of Francesco Tria's birth certificate (attached) says he married a Maria something in 1894, however they are not listed in the 1894 marriage archive: http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... 8.jpg.html

Am I misinterpreting something?