Hello,
The other day this record was translated for me and states Ferdinando Pastore's father is Giovanni (Pastore) and mother is Maria Borghesio.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 1292378102
Today, a record was translated for me and states that Natalina Negri's (she died 1883) parents are Giovanni and Maria Borghesio (who died before 1883). My great grandfather is Luigi Negri on the record but these names above are the parents of Ferdinando Pastore who is the father in law of Luigi Negri (Luigi married Enrichetta Pastore). Luigi and Enrichetta were married in June of 1883 and had presumably their first daughter(Remalia) in Dec of 1883. To confuse the matter further Giovanni Negri (married to Domenica Bocca Negri) is also the name of Luigi's father.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 1292378102
My thoughts are these and I felt I needed help since my confusion became clear to me as I placed the information on the records into my family tree maker. Could Natalina been an out of wedlock daughter to Luigi and Enrichetta possibly? but how are the grandparents of Enrichetta listed on the death certificate of Natalina if they are deceased? I am not seeing something clearly. Need help??
Best Regards, jrbak
Help with confusion on my part involving two records
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bbivona
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Re: Help with confusion on my part involving two records
I'm having trouble seeing where there's a conflict in the records.jrbak wrote: 24 Jun 2019, 03:01 Hello,
The other day this record was translated for me and states Ferdinando Pastore's father is Giovanni (Pastore) and mother is {1}Maria Borghesio.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 1292378102
Today, a record was translated for me and states that Natalina Negri's (she died 1883) parents are Giovanni and Maria Borghesio (who died before 1883). {2}My great grandfather is Luigi Negri on the record {3} but these names above are the parents of Ferdinando Pastore who is the father in law of Luigi Negri (Luigi married Enrichetta Pastore). Luigi and Enrichetta were married in June of 1883 and had presumably their first daughter(Remalia) in Dec of 1883. {4} To confuse the matter further Giovanni Negri (married to Domenica Bocca Negri) is also the name of Luigi's father.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 1292378102
My thoughts are these and I felt I needed help since my confusion became clear to me as I placed the information on the records into my family tree maker. {5} Could Natalina been an out of wedlock daughter to Luigi and Enrichetta possibly? {6} but how are the grandparents of Enrichetta listed on the death certificate of Natalina if they are deceased? I am not seeing something clearly. Need help??
Best Regards, jrbak
{1} Both death records are in 1883. In the first one, Ferdinando Pastore is shown as age 57 and his mother is Maria Borghesio, who is deceased at this date, but would have been in at least in her 70s if she had been living. He is listed as the husband of Maria Bertola, still living at his death.
The second one is a death record for Natalina Negri, age 2, daughter of Giovanni Negri and Maria Borghesio. Clearly Maria Borghesio mother of Ferdinando Pastore is a different person than the mother of Natalina Negri, as the mother of Ferdinando would have been in her 70s at the time of the birth of Natalina Negri.
{2} In the second one Luigi Negri, a 27 year old woodworker, is listed a witness. The names of his parents are not listed and his connection to the family is not listed.
{3} I'll take it as a given from you that these are the names of Enrichetta Pastore's parents. While nothing in the death record of Ferdinando Pastore indicates that he is Enrichetta's father, I also don't see anything in the record that would conflict with that theory.
{4} It's possible that Giovanni Negri, father of Natalina, is a different person that Giovanni Negri, father of your Luigi. We don't know the age of Giovanni Negri, deceased father of Natalina Negri, so it's also possible that he married the mother of Luigi many years earlier and then after her death married Maria Borghesio, and they had Natalina when your Luigi was 25 years old.
{5} I don't see any reason to suspect the death certificate isn't accurate as it is written. I'm not sure of why you're thinking this would/could be the case.
{6} Two-year old Natalina's parents were both listed as deceased when she died. They were Giovanni Negri and Maria Borghesio. I don't see where Enrichetta Pastore's grandparents or parents are listed on her death record.
Let me know where you think there is some conflict.
Researching Gibellina, Sicily surnames Bivona, Bonafede, Zummo, Ponzio, Bevinetto, Beninati, Fontana, Cipolla, Bruno, Manfrè, Lanfranca, and Navarra
Re: Help with confusion on my part involving two records
Dear bbivona,
I was happy to see this morning that you received my private message to you in that I needed time to think all of this through. I did so yesterday, and I believe my problem began with the false assumption of Giovanni being a Pastore (Enrichetta's grandparents)(she is Luigi Negri's wife and my great grandmother) and tying this Maria Borghesio to him (a Pastore rather than a Negri). It was very clear in your first statement that Natalina was the daughter of Giovanni Negri and Maria Borghesio Negri. My false assumption (they were Pastore's) then led me on this whole litany of how other's could be related as I thought Natalina Negri was living with her (great grands-Pastores) at first and now I see it was her parents although Giovanni Negri was deceased).
Your #4 explanation is possibly plausible in that Giovanni remarrying although I have not found any records. I do think the death certificate is in fact factual and accurate. I still believe that my great grandpa, Luigi Negri is related somehow as he was a witness ( his age and the fact that he was a woodworker). An uncle's daughter? I won't place her in family tree maker until I know conclusively. The more certificates I look at even if they are from other families; they usually have a thread of a common name as one reporting or witnessing (not always but in most cases).
I believe my excitement often overwhelms me and as I said to you, I need to slow down, think carefully and deliberately and NOT ASSUME!! I know this last one well as when I am helping others here in the states on Ancestry or wherever, I always tell them this is the most important rule to follow. And then what do I do, but break it for myself. I will reiterate what I said before to you ( in the PM) and that is how very grateful I am for all your help in this and especially taking all the time you did in writing such a thorough explanation to me. You were so thoughtful and I can't thank you enough.
Take care and Best Regards,
jrbak
I was happy to see this morning that you received my private message to you in that I needed time to think all of this through. I did so yesterday, and I believe my problem began with the false assumption of Giovanni being a Pastore (Enrichetta's grandparents)(she is Luigi Negri's wife and my great grandmother) and tying this Maria Borghesio to him (a Pastore rather than a Negri). It was very clear in your first statement that Natalina was the daughter of Giovanni Negri and Maria Borghesio Negri. My false assumption (they were Pastore's) then led me on this whole litany of how other's could be related as I thought Natalina Negri was living with her (great grands-Pastores) at first and now I see it was her parents although Giovanni Negri was deceased).
Your #4 explanation is possibly plausible in that Giovanni remarrying although I have not found any records. I do think the death certificate is in fact factual and accurate. I still believe that my great grandpa, Luigi Negri is related somehow as he was a witness ( his age and the fact that he was a woodworker). An uncle's daughter? I won't place her in family tree maker until I know conclusively. The more certificates I look at even if they are from other families; they usually have a thread of a common name as one reporting or witnessing (not always but in most cases).
I believe my excitement often overwhelms me and as I said to you, I need to slow down, think carefully and deliberately and NOT ASSUME!! I know this last one well as when I am helping others here in the states on Ancestry or wherever, I always tell them this is the most important rule to follow. And then what do I do, but break it for myself. I will reiterate what I said before to you ( in the PM) and that is how very grateful I am for all your help in this and especially taking all the time you did in writing such a thorough explanation to me. You were so thoughtful and I can't thank you enough.
Take care and Best Regards,
jrbak
