Help with the translation of death record #10

[jrbak]

Hello again,
I am asking for your help in translating the record for Guiseppe Negri as my 2nd great grandfather Giovanni Negri is listed on this record and I would like to know how they are related. It seems they are all related in some way there in Piverone, Italy (my paternal side) much like they are in the south (United States) on my mothers side. They lived close, were married and buried there all in the same vicinity. My search so far is going well thanks to all of your help and I am so grateful.
jrbak or Mrs.Ray


https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 2378102elp

[bbivona]

On February 27, 1883, before city officials at Piverone town hall, appeared Giovanni Negri, son of Giuseppe, deceased, age 45, farmer, domiciled in Piverone, and Gaspare Boratto, son of Giuseppe, deceased, age 83,farmer, domiciled in Piverone, who declared that at 9 a.m. today in the home at Via Valle #295, Giuseppe Negri died, son of Giuseppe (farmer, deceased), age 89, farmer, resident in Piverone, domiciled in life in Piverone, and of Antonia Pavignano, deceased, domiciled in life in Piverone, widow of Maria Carisio.

Witnesses to this death act are Valeriano Campo, age 69, town treasurer, and Lorenzo Orinoe, son of Francesco (deceased), age 72, pristinajo (baker), both residents of this comune.

[jrbak]

Wow- do I need help with this one. Giovanni Negri (age 45) was the son of Giuseppe Negri (age 89) who died at Via Valle #295. Gaspare Boratto son of another Giuseppe (Boratto) (age 83) was another witness correct? Then I don't understand Giuseppe Negri was son of Giuseppe and Antonia Pavignano (male?) widow of Maria Carisio or was she married to Giuseppe or both? MANY THANKS!!
jrbak

[AngelaGrace56]

Wow- do I need help with this one. Giovanni Negri (age 45) was the son of Giuseppe Negri (age 89) who died at Via Valle #295. Gaspare Boratto son of another Giuseppe (Boratto) (age 83) was another witness correct? Then I don't understand Giuseppe Negri was son of Giuseppe and Antonia Pavignano (female) widow of Maria Carisio or was she married to Giuseppe or both? MANY THANKS!!
jrbak

Hopefully the following will help clarify:

Giuseppe Negri, is the dead person. This is his Death Record and he died 27 February 1883, at the age of 86, was born, lived and died in Piverone.

His father was: Giuseppe Negri, deceased
His mother was: Antonia Pavignano, deceased
His wife was Maria Carisio, deceased

Other facts: he died in his home at Via Valle, No 295 and both he and his father were Contadini (peasants).

Edit to Add:

It doesn't say anywhere that the Giovanni Negri (age 45) who reported the death was the deceased's son. You have to be careful about making assumptions. Personally, I would just forget about the men who reported the death at the moment. They may or may not be related. There is not enough detail about them to verify how or even whether they are in your family tree. (Unless you can perfectly match Giovanni Negri's signature at the base of the record with another record you have? That would help.)

Best to you.

Angela

[bbivona]

Hopefully the following will help clarify:

Giuseppe Negri, is the dead person. This is his Death Record and he died 27 February 1883, at the age of 86, was born, lived and died in Piverone.

Thanks for catching the age discrepancy. Looks like I made a typo - the record is clear.

[AngelaGrace56]

Hopefully the following will help clarify:

Giuseppe Negri, is the dead person. This is his Death Record and he died 27 February 1883, at the age of 86, was born, lived and died in Piverone.

Thanks for catching the age discrepancy. Looks like I made a typo - the record is clear.

All good. That's what we do here, support one another. I thought you did a fantastic job with your setting out, and explanations here: https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ ... 09#p290809 Well done. It must have taken a while to sort it out and type it all up.

Best to you.

Angela

[jrbak]

Dear AngelaGrace56 and bbviona,
I am just now looking at all the queries and the replies from my work here at italiangenealogy.com on Sunday past.

As always I cannot thank you both enough for trying to help make things clearer to me.
I think this will help me if you could answer a few questions? I really do appreciate it so very much as this will help me when I read more death certificates. The one for Ferdinando Pastore was so easy but these seem harder to me for some reason.

Is this stating that the two men, Giovanni Negri and Gaspare Boratto are both sons of a Giuseppe but not the deceased Giuseppe? I know in my work with death certificates in the states we do not assume things either. Working with these documents is different to me and I have to get used to the commas as well as how the certificate reads. Is this saying that Giovanni Negri is age 45, farmer, lived in Piverone? Is Gaspare age 83, farmer, lived in Piverone or are these things referring to the two men's deceased father Giuseppe?

Then it follows that Giuseppe Negri was the son of a Giuseppe too ( because it is in parenthesis the farmer, deceased refers to Giuseppe the father) but Giuseppe the son who died at Via Valle is 89, also a farmer and lived in Piverone for life and now as you explained which is now clear to me his mother was Antonia Pavignano (her maiden name) and Giuseppe Negri was married to Maria Carisio.

I still feel that Giuseppe Negri's father was no doubt Giuseppe Negri but I know we can't assume this. Also that Giovanni Negri was his son also. We would have to have the birth certificate or as you explained confirmed a signature.

This and bbiona's explanation ( I have not seen it yet and am going to copy it and digest it before I respond) on another document she/he wrote to me confirm that I must slow down, learn much, not assume- it is not a race, although I get so excited. I will get better at this the more I see. This one had too many Giuseppe's I think.

Thank you both again so very much!!

[AngelaGrace56]

Dear AngelaGrace56 and bbviona,
I am just now looking at all the queries and the replies from my work here at italiangenealogy.com on Sunday past.

As always I cannot thank you both enough for trying to help make things clearer to me.
I think this will help me if you could answer a few questions? I really do appreciate it so very much as this will help me when I read more death certificates. The one for Ferdinando Pastore was so easy but these seem harder to me for some reason.

Is this stating that the two men, Giovanni Negri and Gaspare Boratto are both sons of a Giuseppe but not the deceased Giuseppe? Yes, you've got it. I know in my work with death certificates in the states we do not assume things either. Working with these documents is different to me and I have to get used to the commas as well as how the certificate reads. Is this saying that Giovanni Negri is age 45, farmer, lived in Piverone? Yes, that's right. Is Gaspare age 83, farmer, lived in Piverone Yes, correct again.
or are these things referring to the two men's deceased father Giuseppe? No, they aren't.

Have you seen the two records that I added to this thread here: https://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/language/45757


Angela

[jrbak]

Dear AngelaGrace56,
Thank you so much for answering these questions for me as it will help me on a go forward basis as learn how better to translate these death records.
Best Regards,
jrbak orJefferie

[AngelaGrace56]

Dear AngelaGrace56,
Thank you so much for answering these questions for me as it will help me on a go forward basis as learn how better to translate these death records.
Best Regards,
jrbak orJefferie

You are very welcome, Jefferie. Happy that my reply has helped.

Angela