Hi again,
I am in need of some help with the translation of this marriage document #13 for Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino. She is my great grandfather's sister. Thank you very much.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... 1476999644
With much gratitude,
Jefferie (jrbak)
Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
-
AngelaGrace56
- Master
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Marriage No 13: Giovanni Battista Lavarino and Paola Florinda Nigri
Piverone: 1 December 1873
Appearing before the official were:
Groom: Giovanni Battista Lavarino, celibe, 23 yo, son of the both living Luigi Lavarino and Teresa Pastore.
Bride: Paola Florinda Negri, nubile, 24 yo, daughter of the both living Giovanni Negri and Domenica Bocca.
The following is worded differently to what we ususally see. This is what I am understanding, and not verbatim:
The bride, Paola Negri was born in Graglia, and the groom, Giovanni Lavarino, was born in Piverone. Now all are residing in Piverone. The profession of Giovanni Lavarino is a Sarto (tailor) and the others were all? contadini (peasants).
The Allegati (Attachments) for this marriage starts here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1475996
(Allegati also called Processetti, are the attachments/documents that were required in order for a marriage to take place. The documents that were included in this package of allegati were extracts of Bride and Groom's baptism/birth records, and the Marriage Banns.)
The following is an extract of Paola Florinda's birth/baptism Record. I don't think the originals are online, so it is a bonus to have this:
Extract of Birth and of Baptism, No 11: Paola Florinda Negri:
Parish of Santa Fede, Town of Graglia: 9 April 1849
A female baby born 8 April 1849 at 10 pm was presented, baptism was adinistered, and she was given the name Paola Florinda. She was the daughter of Giovanni Negri, benestante (meaning well-off/well to do/wealthy), living in Santia, and of Domenica Bocca, benestante, also living in Santia, married persons.
The Godfather was Alessandro Mentegazzi, a student, living in Santia, and the Godmother was Florinda Mentegazzi, benestante, living in Santia.....
The indication?/announcement?/declaration of the birth with the request of Baptism was made from Alessandro Mentegazzi in the absence of the father of the new born.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1475996
It's interesting that whilst they were living in Santia, the parents, Giovanni Negri and Domenica Bocca were considered "well off", whereas in 1873 from the marriage record of Paola and Giovanni, I am understanding them to be contadini?
Angela
Piverone: 1 December 1873
Appearing before the official were:
Groom: Giovanni Battista Lavarino, celibe, 23 yo, son of the both living Luigi Lavarino and Teresa Pastore.
Bride: Paola Florinda Negri, nubile, 24 yo, daughter of the both living Giovanni Negri and Domenica Bocca.
The following is worded differently to what we ususally see. This is what I am understanding, and not verbatim:
The bride, Paola Negri was born in Graglia, and the groom, Giovanni Lavarino, was born in Piverone. Now all are residing in Piverone. The profession of Giovanni Lavarino is a Sarto (tailor) and the others were all? contadini (peasants).
The Allegati (Attachments) for this marriage starts here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1475996
(Allegati also called Processetti, are the attachments/documents that were required in order for a marriage to take place. The documents that were included in this package of allegati were extracts of Bride and Groom's baptism/birth records, and the Marriage Banns.)
The following is an extract of Paola Florinda's birth/baptism Record. I don't think the originals are online, so it is a bonus to have this:
Extract of Birth and of Baptism, No 11: Paola Florinda Negri:
Parish of Santa Fede, Town of Graglia: 9 April 1849
A female baby born 8 April 1849 at 10 pm was presented, baptism was adinistered, and she was given the name Paola Florinda. She was the daughter of Giovanni Negri, benestante (meaning well-off/well to do/wealthy), living in Santia, and of Domenica Bocca, benestante, also living in Santia, married persons.
The Godfather was Alessandro Mentegazzi, a student, living in Santia, and the Godmother was Florinda Mentegazzi, benestante, living in Santia.....
The indication?/announcement?/declaration of the birth with the request of Baptism was made from Alessandro Mentegazzi in the absence of the father of the new born.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1475996
It's interesting that whilst they were living in Santia, the parents, Giovanni Negri and Domenica Bocca were considered "well off", whereas in 1873 from the marriage record of Paola and Giovanni, I am understanding them to be contadini?
Angela
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Dear Angela,
Thank you so much for all of your help with finding these documents. Mine was in a different place; I usually start with the other records and I don't go to the Allegati records and maybe I should. It is wonderful to have the birth/baptism record as well. How great! I am pleased to learn from all of your explanations and am grateful for them.
I do know from one of the records on Domenico Bocca, her father, Francesco, was a landowner there and that maybe where the well to do part comes from. I did not know Giovanni was well to do (thought he was a peasant too) but I also did not realize that he lived in Santhia until these records stated this. Her (Domenico's) parents spent their lives in Santhia, Vercelli, Piemonte, Italy but Domenica and Giovanni came to Piverone. I thought from another record ( I have to go over them again) Giovanni was born in Piverone but now it may have been Santhia. Maybe they were married there too before coming to Piverone. I figure they married about 1841 and have been looking for a record.
These are the records from Santhia that I will have to order from the mormon church and go to an LDS center to look at them. I have been very fortunate so far to have all of these other records online (WOW!!) Now this opens another town to research; Graglia where Paola was born.
More to research; it is so much fun but I am going to have to break at some point and get some other things accomplished. Thank you so much again.
Best Regards,
Jefferie
Thank you so much for all of your help with finding these documents. Mine was in a different place; I usually start with the other records and I don't go to the Allegati records and maybe I should. It is wonderful to have the birth/baptism record as well. How great! I am pleased to learn from all of your explanations and am grateful for them.
I do know from one of the records on Domenico Bocca, her father, Francesco, was a landowner there and that maybe where the well to do part comes from. I did not know Giovanni was well to do (thought he was a peasant too) but I also did not realize that he lived in Santhia until these records stated this. Her (Domenico's) parents spent their lives in Santhia, Vercelli, Piemonte, Italy but Domenica and Giovanni came to Piverone. I thought from another record ( I have to go over them again) Giovanni was born in Piverone but now it may have been Santhia. Maybe they were married there too before coming to Piverone. I figure they married about 1841 and have been looking for a record.
These are the records from Santhia that I will have to order from the mormon church and go to an LDS center to look at them. I have been very fortunate so far to have all of these other records online (WOW!!) Now this opens another town to research; Graglia where Paola was born.
More to research; it is so much fun but I am going to have to break at some point and get some other things accomplished. Thank you so much again.
Best Regards,
Jefferie
-
AngelaGrace56
- Master
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
You are so welcome for the help. I've enjoyed it and I am pleased that you are enjoying the journey.
Briefly, I just want to comment on a couple of matters you have raised here.
1. Re Giovanni Negri's place of birth, from his Death Record I am understanding that he was born in Piverone circa 1818. .
2. Re records for Santhia.
We can no longer order the microfilms from Salt Lake City. LDS have stopped this service because they have been busily trying to get all the microfilmed records, digitised and published online.
Here is what is available for Santhia:
Santhia Civil Records: Vercelli 1800-1913 https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library
You will note that some of the records still haven't been digitised. The ones that have been digitised are only available to view at either a Family History Library or at an Affiliated Library.
The other site to keep tabs on is this one here:
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... s/?lang=en
Scroll down and click on Vercelli. It looks likes they are planning to put these records on line soon. So just keep checking this site.
Edit to Add:
Just one more thing, a marriage usually takes place in the bride's town of birth. As Domenica Bocca was born in Santhia (according to her Death Record) that is where the marriage would most likely have taken place. Usually though the Banns would be posted in both the Bride and the Groom's home towns.
Angela
Briefly, I just want to comment on a couple of matters you have raised here.
1. Re Giovanni Negri's place of birth, from his Death Record I am understanding that he was born in Piverone circa 1818. .
2. Re records for Santhia.
We can no longer order the microfilms from Salt Lake City. LDS have stopped this service because they have been busily trying to get all the microfilmed records, digitised and published online.
Here is what is available for Santhia:
Santhia Civil Records: Vercelli 1800-1913 https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... %20Library
You will note that some of the records still haven't been digitised. The ones that have been digitised are only available to view at either a Family History Library or at an Affiliated Library.
The other site to keep tabs on is this one here:
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... s/?lang=en
Scroll down and click on Vercelli. It looks likes they are planning to put these records on line soon. So just keep checking this site.
Edit to Add:
Just one more thing, a marriage usually takes place in the bride's town of birth. As Domenica Bocca was born in Santhia (according to her Death Record) that is where the marriage would most likely have taken place. Usually though the Banns would be posted in both the Bride and the Groom's home towns.
Angela
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Dear Angela,
I have been formulating a reply to your response to my writing as I have some things to share and some questions although you will probably not be able to answer them. I really appreciate you letting me know about the LDS films. I haven't gone to a center in years so I was not aware of what they are doing. It will be wonderful when they do have them digitized. I had helped do some translation work for them sometime back and I really need to volunteer again.
As for the marriages; it is so good to know that they are married mostly in the bride's home town. I was not aware of this so I am happy you told me.
I see the Vercelli records on the LDS are digitized but they are for that town only. So I will go to an LDS center and look at what they have so far for Santhia and Graglia. I see Biella is the new region but it was not until 1999 I think.
I have some thoughts on my research:
Giovanni Negro/Negri and Domenica Bocca (2nd great grands) had three children so far as I have been able to locate records.
l. Francesco Negri (#1 death record on the forum); I think he was born in Santhia?
My grandfather Luigi, had a Bible which recorded his birth as May 4, 1842 and his death as Jan 29, 1926. According to the death record it reads, Jan 20, 1926. Minor discrepancy. Nothing states where he was born or died though.
2. Paola Negri (this site on the forum); it states was born in Graglia, Apr. 9, 1849. Her father, Giovanni was not present. Interesting-why not? and why was she born about 40 minutes from Santhia (unless visiting relatives or ?)?
Then there is the question as to why I have not found more births between 1842 and 1849 in Piverone unless the others are born in Santhia. That is too many years not to have more children don't you think? They married in Piverone.
3. Luigi Negri (my great grandfather), born 26 Oct 1855 in Piverone. Was married and died in Piverone too. Again, why not more births between 1849 and 1855?
I am thinking that Giovanni may have worked on the farm of Domenico's father, Francesco Bocca (he was a landowner), Giovanni was the peasant (worker farmer) or not well to do, fell in love with Domenicco Bocca, they married and later moved to Piverone where they both died.
So, Giovanni's death record states he was born in Piverone but we know that two children had ties to Santhia and Graglia; was he born in Piverone or Santhia? Interesting he met Domenica Bocca who was born in Santhia.
I have looked at most (all but a 1000 or so of the baptisms, after 1838 to about 1867) in the Piverone church records. Those in Latin are not even decipherable for me; I can't distinguish even a surname. I have found Negri's mostly and one Negro, but I am still having a time reading the names of the early 1800 records. I have written down the page # for each Negri and Pastore because there are over 3000 records and I wanted to be able to go straight to the record the second time.
From Giovanni's death record, it states his father (Guiseppe Negri) and mother Paola Benedetto were living in Piverone. So it follows that they probably died in Piverone and both before 1893. However, I am not finding any Benedetto's (only one, Antonio). I did find early Guiseppe's. Maybe they were from Santhia too?
It is a great deal to contemplate but it gives me many areas to research. Any ideas of your own? Hope you have a good evening. I must close for now.
Thanks for listening and being able to share my thoughts. It is often nice for someone outside to look in for perspective.
My best to you,
Jefferie (jrbak)
I have been formulating a reply to your response to my writing as I have some things to share and some questions although you will probably not be able to answer them. I really appreciate you letting me know about the LDS films. I haven't gone to a center in years so I was not aware of what they are doing. It will be wonderful when they do have them digitized. I had helped do some translation work for them sometime back and I really need to volunteer again.
As for the marriages; it is so good to know that they are married mostly in the bride's home town. I was not aware of this so I am happy you told me.
I see the Vercelli records on the LDS are digitized but they are for that town only. So I will go to an LDS center and look at what they have so far for Santhia and Graglia. I see Biella is the new region but it was not until 1999 I think.
I have some thoughts on my research:
Giovanni Negro/Negri and Domenica Bocca (2nd great grands) had three children so far as I have been able to locate records.
l. Francesco Negri (#1 death record on the forum); I think he was born in Santhia?
My grandfather Luigi, had a Bible which recorded his birth as May 4, 1842 and his death as Jan 29, 1926. According to the death record it reads, Jan 20, 1926. Minor discrepancy. Nothing states where he was born or died though.
2. Paola Negri (this site on the forum); it states was born in Graglia, Apr. 9, 1849. Her father, Giovanni was not present. Interesting-why not? and why was she born about 40 minutes from Santhia (unless visiting relatives or ?)?
Then there is the question as to why I have not found more births between 1842 and 1849 in Piverone unless the others are born in Santhia. That is too many years not to have more children don't you think? They married in Piverone.
3. Luigi Negri (my great grandfather), born 26 Oct 1855 in Piverone. Was married and died in Piverone too. Again, why not more births between 1849 and 1855?
I am thinking that Giovanni may have worked on the farm of Domenico's father, Francesco Bocca (he was a landowner), Giovanni was the peasant (worker farmer) or not well to do, fell in love with Domenicco Bocca, they married and later moved to Piverone where they both died.
So, Giovanni's death record states he was born in Piverone but we know that two children had ties to Santhia and Graglia; was he born in Piverone or Santhia? Interesting he met Domenica Bocca who was born in Santhia.
I have looked at most (all but a 1000 or so of the baptisms, after 1838 to about 1867) in the Piverone church records. Those in Latin are not even decipherable for me; I can't distinguish even a surname. I have found Negri's mostly and one Negro, but I am still having a time reading the names of the early 1800 records. I have written down the page # for each Negri and Pastore because there are over 3000 records and I wanted to be able to go straight to the record the second time.
From Giovanni's death record, it states his father (Guiseppe Negri) and mother Paola Benedetto were living in Piverone. So it follows that they probably died in Piverone and both before 1893. However, I am not finding any Benedetto's (only one, Antonio). I did find early Guiseppe's. Maybe they were from Santhia too?
It is a great deal to contemplate but it gives me many areas to research. Any ideas of your own? Hope you have a good evening. I must close for now.
Thanks for listening and being able to share my thoughts. It is often nice for someone outside to look in for perspective.
My best to you,
Jefferie (jrbak)
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Dear Angela,
One more thought; I see that you mentioned "the following is worded differently to what we usually see. This is what I am understanding, and not verbatim": then you go on to state, the bride, Paola Negri..........
so I am wondering if one of your colleagues would see more or some different wording that we may have missed. Just a thought. What do you think? I have no intention of hurting your feelings! Please take no offence.
Thanks,
Jefferie (jrbak)
One more thought; I see that you mentioned "the following is worded differently to what we usually see. This is what I am understanding, and not verbatim": then you go on to state, the bride, Paola Negri..........
so I am wondering if one of your colleagues would see more or some different wording that we may have missed. Just a thought. What do you think? I have no intention of hurting your feelings! Please take no offence.
Thanks,
Jefferie (jrbak)
-
AngelaGrace56
- Master
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
You do have a few questions here and I believe that most of them will be answered with further persistant research. (You've just proved this by locating Paola Benedetto's Death Record. That was quite a hard record to locate but you found it.jrbak wrote: 18 Jul 2019, 00:34 Dear Angela,
I have been formulating a reply to your response to my writing as I have some things to share and some questions although you will probably not be able to answer them. I really appreciate you letting me know about the LDS films. I haven't gone to a center in years so I was not aware of what they are doing. It will be wonderful when they do have them digitized. I had helped do some translation work for them sometime back and I really need to volunteer again.
As for the marriages; it is so good to know that they are married mostly in the bride's home town. I was not aware of this so I am happy you told me.
I see the Vercelli records on the LDS are digitized but they are for that town only. So I will go to an LDS center and look at what they have so far for Santhia and Graglia. I see Biella is the new region but it was not until 1999 I think.
I'm understanding that the towns of Santhia and Graglia are included in some of the films listed there. Take a closer look there and see what you think. e.g. Santhia: Film No 1604415, 1604633, 7860643 etc Graglia: Film No 1604147,
The only problem is, these records, which are Civil Records start from 1866 and won't be of much use for you in finding the records you need pertaining to Domenica Bocca and Giovanni Negri. You'll have to go to Church Records for those which don't seem to have been microfilmed. (Keeping Civil Records in Central and Northern Italy started 1866.)
I have some thoughts on my research:
Giovanni Negro/Negri and Domenica Bocca (2nd great grands) had three children so far as I have been able to locate records.
l. Francesco Negri (#1 death record on the forum); I think he was born in Santhia?
My grandfather Luigi, had a Bible which recorded his birth as May 4, 1842 and his death as Jan 29, 1926. According to the death record it reads, Jan 20, 1926. Minor discrepancy. Nothing states where he was born or died though.
2. Paola Negri (this site on the forum); it states was born in Graglia, Apr. 9, 1849. Her father, Giovanni was not present. Interesting-why not? and why was she born about 40 minutes from Santhia (unless visiting relatives or ?)?
Then there is the question as to why I have not found more births between 1842 and 1849 in Piverone unless the others are born in Santhia. That is too many years not to have more children don't you think? They married in Piverone.
3. Luigi Negri (my great grandfather), born 26 Oct 1855 in Piverone. Was married and died in Piverone too. Again, why not more births between 1849 and 1855?
I am thinking that Giovanni may have worked on the farm of Domenico's father, Francesco Bocca (he was a landowner), Giovanni was the peasant (worker farmer) or not well to do, fell in love with Domenicco Bocca, they married and later moved to Piverone where they both died.
So, Giovanni's death record states he was born in Piverone but we know that two children had ties to Santhia and Graglia; was he born in Piverone or Santhia? Interesting he met Domenica Bocca who was born in Santhia.
I have looked at most (all but a 1000 or so of the baptisms, after 1838 to about 1867) in the Piverone church records. Those in Latin are not even decipherable for me; I can't distinguish even a surname. I have found Negri's mostly and one Negro, but I am still having a time reading the names of the early 1800 records. I have written down the page # for each Negri and Pastore because there are over 3000 records and I wanted to be able to go straight to the record the second time.
From Giovanni's death record, it states his father (Guiseppe Negri) and mother Paola Benedetto were living in Piverone. So it follows that they probably died in Piverone and both before 1893. However, I am not finding any Benedetto's (only one, Antonio). I did find early Guiseppe's. Maybe they were from Santhia too?
It is a great deal to contemplate but it gives me many areas to research. Any ideas of your own? Hope you have a good evening. I must close for now.
Thanks for listening and being able to share my thoughts. It is often nice for someone outside to look in for perspective.
My best to you,
Jefferie (jrbak)
(Even with there being no no index for that year - and the fact that you can barely read "Benedetto" didn't help nor the fact that it has her husbands surname first. So very well done!)Just hang in there and keep going with it. Keep asking questions, we don't mind. (A lot of questions get repeated on this site, like questions about allegati, pubblications/pubblicazioni etc so do use the "search tool" first.) If you need help locating some of the harder to read Latin records, just ask for help. Type up a separate post, let us know who you are looking for, give us a time frame of when s/he died, who the parents were, etc.
Your questions about the large gaps between children's births. This did happen. Mostly it happened, especially in Southern Italy, because the husband would leave to search for work. He would go, sometimes stay away for years, and send money back to his wife.
(I'm intrigued about your great grandfather Luigi Negri having a Bible. Is it a Catholic one? In Italian? Or Latin? I remember my mum telling me that Catholics were not allowed to read the Bible, and that it could only be interpreted by a priest?)
I believe that my interpretation of the Act is correct. I can understand you wanting to be certain though so just repost the record with my translation and ask for confirmation of the sentence in question, or whatever.jrbak wrote: 18 Jul 2019, 00:43 Dear Angela,
One more thought; I see that you mentioned "the following is worded differently to what we usually see. This is what I am understanding, and not verbatim": then you go on to state, the bride, Paola Negri..........
so I am wondering if one of your colleagues would see more or some different wording that we may have missed. Just a thought. What do you think? I have no intention of hurting your feelings! Please take no offence.
Thanks,
Jefferie (jrbak)
Best to you,
Angela
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Dear Angela,
Thank you for all of your responses to my questions. When I have time, I will go back onto the Vercelli records and take a closer look at them which would be a start, but as you say, I think my dates go back further. Maybe they will digitized soon. Domenico Bocca and Giovanni Negri, no doubt married in Santhia as you said and about 1841 or so but I will try to find what I can.
I am finding that "persistent" research is key and it all takes time. I do appreciate everyone's help in my efforts and they have all been so responsive, kind and generous with their time.
Your answer with regards to the "children gap" makes so much sense and something I did not put together. Here in the states, especially in the Carolina's and Virginia, they had huge families to work the farms. This was later though when they started buying property. Before they were tenant farmers just like in Italy but did seem to have a few more children. Probably because they did not have to go as far for work.
I wish I could answer your question about the type of Bible that great grandpa had but I do not know. I would think Latin (Catholic) and then Italian depending on when they were translated. I have read the history of the Bible but without referring back I cannot recall when each came about. I know my cousins here in the states had Latin missiles (I think these were prayer books though) early on. I have many questions with regard to Luigi's upbringing and the family's religious life. It is a very interesting story which I will share with you.
Thank you again for all of your help and as soon as I do more research I will post.
Jefferie (jrbak)
Thank you for all of your responses to my questions. When I have time, I will go back onto the Vercelli records and take a closer look at them which would be a start, but as you say, I think my dates go back further. Maybe they will digitized soon. Domenico Bocca and Giovanni Negri, no doubt married in Santhia as you said and about 1841 or so but I will try to find what I can.
I am finding that "persistent" research is key and it all takes time. I do appreciate everyone's help in my efforts and they have all been so responsive, kind and generous with their time.
Your answer with regards to the "children gap" makes so much sense and something I did not put together. Here in the states, especially in the Carolina's and Virginia, they had huge families to work the farms. This was later though when they started buying property. Before they were tenant farmers just like in Italy but did seem to have a few more children. Probably because they did not have to go as far for work.
I wish I could answer your question about the type of Bible that great grandpa had but I do not know. I would think Latin (Catholic) and then Italian depending on when they were translated. I have read the history of the Bible but without referring back I cannot recall when each came about. I know my cousins here in the states had Latin missiles (I think these were prayer books though) early on. I have many questions with regard to Luigi's upbringing and the family's religious life. It is a very interesting story which I will share with you.
Thank you again for all of your help and as soon as I do more research I will post.
Jefferie (jrbak)
-
AngelaGrace56
- Master
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54
Re: Please help with the translation of marriage doc #13; Paola Negri and Giovanni Lavarino
Thank you so much for your very interesting message, Jefferie. I will reply very soon.
Kind regards, Angela
Kind regards, Angela
