Marriage Banns translation help needed

[scraig32]

I am in need of translation help for marriage banns for Don Mariano Di Stefano & Ippolita Perez. Images 1156-1169. I know the following:

Wife: Ippolita Perez
Father: Deceased, Antonino Perez
Mother: Deceased, Marianna Napolitano

Husband: Don Mariano DiStefano, lawyer
Father: Knight Giuseppe DiStefano
Mother: Giovanna Falco

Marriage Date: April 27, 1839 Santa Ninfa

I am seeking help with the following:
1. Are death dates listed for Antonino Perez or Marianna Napolitano, parents of the bride.
2. Image 1167, right page, near the top. I see mention of a Principe Castelforte. Can anyone tell me what this section says about him. Does it list his wife the Principessa Massa? I saw somewhere else in the document the mention of Salvator Massa- can't figure who he is.
3. Is there anything else noteworthy that you see?

Thank you so much for your help!!!! Suzanne



http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

[PippoM]

Hi Suzanne,
no, there are no death dates for bride's parents, nor their death certificates.
There are the Baptismal records of the spouses (if you can't read them, just tell me), and a report of the family council, that was necessary for the consent to the marriage of a minor, such as Ippolita.
The report mentions Ippolita's father as a baron. She had inherited some "goods" (it is not said if money, land, or buildings) from Salvatore Massa Valguarnera, Prince of Castelforte. It is not said if he was related to her in some way.
The members of the family council were both from her paternal and maternal sides. I notice they are named "the Spanish way", i.e. by a double surname, father's+mother's. Maybe that was was typical of that area, or of nobles.

[scraig32]

Thank you so very much!!!! I have reason to believe that the Prince of Castelforte was the the bride's grandfather. Her mother, Marianna, was supposedly the illigitamte child of the Prince. So I am thrilled to see his name listed. Thank you so very much. And according to my families "story", Ippolita was rich in some way. It is interesting that you noted the names are listed "the Spanish Way" because my family story also said that Ippolita was Spanish. She was born in Palermo. I have been trying, with no luck, to find the birth place of her father and mother to see if either of them were from Spain. But perhaps it was just their way of doing names that caused people to say that. Thank you for your help and your insight. It gives me lots to think about. If you have any tips on where I would look for death records for the bride's parents, I would love your help. I have searched all Palermo death records for the years 1819(birth of their daughter) to 1839 (the wedding). Again, THANK YOU!!!!!

[PippoM]

Well, it is clear that Ippolita's surname is of Spanish origin, though she might belong to a family that had been living in Sicily for centuries. It is evident that she was rich, too.
Her baptismal certificate (image #1162) states the Prince of Castelforte was her godfather, and maybe his wife Melchiora was godmother, though I can't read in the fold of the page.

[scraig32]

Thank you again!! Happy to know the name of the Prince’s wife. Can you tell on that same image 1162, I see the name Hippolyta in the text. Can you tell who that is referring to. The baptized baby is Ippolita Perez. Wondering if this is someone she might be named after. Also, after the very last name- Melchiora Massa it says Colonna. Do you know what “Colonna”? Is that a name or a title? Thank you so very much!!

[PippoM]

Ippolita Perez is the baby who later married Mariano Di Stefano, if I understand what you mean.
She was given names Ippolita, Melchiorra (like her godmother), Teodosia, Provvidenza.
I'm thinking that I'm not so sure about Melchiora Massa being the Prince's wife. She might well be his sister.
When you find the word "et" between surnames in Sicilian record, it is used to join maiden and married surnames, but now I don't remember in which order. Maybe we need someone more expert than me.
So maybe she was the Prince's wife (maiden name Colonna), or a sister (married name Colonna).
Of course, these are only guesses, as there's no explicit relation expressed.
Notice, also, that Colonna is the surname of the priest, too.

[scraig32]

Oh wow! This is awesome information! Yes, you understand correctly, Ippolita Perez is the baby in the baptismal record who marries Mariano Di Stefano.

So, are you saying that at her baptism she was given the name Hippolyta Melchiorra Teodosio Provvidenza? That is her full name? Wow!! That’s awesome. So maybe she just changed the spelling to Ippolita over time.

I am not sure how to ask others more expert about the surname order. Do I make that as a new post? Or do I just leave it here for others to look at? It is so fascinating and I would love to know who Melchiora Massa Colonna is, the Prince’s wife or the Prince’s sister. This story keeps getting better and better!

I love all of your info, guesses or not, they give me lots to research and explore. Any bit of info always helps and can lead to great things. You have got me on a path that I once thought was closed. So I THANK YOU so much!!!!

Aside, I have since found a possible Spanish connection to Ippolita. I took the info you gave me in your original reply and typed in Salvatore Massa (our Prince) into Ancestry. Several interesting records popped up, all from Spain. One is a baptismal record dated feb 1755, Campllonch, Gerona, Spain for a baby Salvado Pera Narcis Massa. Mother Maria Falgueras. This is just a crazy hunch but doesn’t the last name of the mother- Falgueras look oddly similar to the full last name of the Prince- Salvatore Massa Valguarnera??? If your theory about the “Spanish Way” is correct and he is using the double surname, father’s+mother’s, then that would imply that the Prince’s mother’s surname was Valguarnera- and the document I find on Ancestry has a mother to a Salvador Massa being Maria Falguearas. Very interesting indeed. Perhaps that is my Spanish connection that I have been looking for. Any thoughts?? Or is that just too crazy to think as a possibility?

Thanks a million for ALL of your help!!!!

[PippoM]

First of all, I want to point out that Hyppolita is just Latin for Ippolita, as the baptismal record is in Latin.
According to this:

http://heraldicacatalana.blogspot.com/2 ... ia-vi.html

Valguarnera and Falgueras seem to be the Italian and Spanish spelling for the same place/family.

Then, I think I got the Prince:

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... massa.html

Melchiorra (maiden name Colonna) was his sister-in-law, the wife of his brother Vitale.
Ippolita was named after his mother Ippolita Valguarnera.
He married twice, but had no children, that's why he could leave his goods to other people, including Ippolita Perez.
Here is the family coat-of-arms:

http://www.bibliotecacentraleregionesic ... rzullo.htm

Of course, there's nothing that can prove a blood relation to Ippolita Perez.

[scraig32]

This is the MOST wonderful information!!! I can not begin to tell you how AWESOME you are in finding all of this for me. Thank you a million times!!!

It all makes sense now! I didn't realize the baptismal record was in Latin. Now I can see the surname in both Spanish and Italian.

I think that you found the Prince too! A little bit of info from a fellow researcher and descendant of Ippolita- the family says that Ippolita's mother (Marianna Napolitano) was the illegitimate daughter of the Prince of Castelforte. Which would make sense, with what you found, that he never had any children (legitimate) and left some goods to Ippolita. And gave her his mother's name. Under this theory the Prince would be Ippolita's grandfather and his mother, Ippolita, would be her great grandmother. I would be curious where the info about the illegitamate daughter came from originally- a document, or a record in the family book. I will have to ask my family connection. It would be nice to have some real proof of the connection.

I am so excited about the links you provided- the Massa tree and the Massa coat of arms. I'm going to translate them so I can see what they say. So excited!!

[scraig32]

I have finally had time to sit down and "digest" a bit of the wonderful information and links you provided. I think you are spot on and have found my line of ancestors. I am excited to really delve into all the links but started with the one with the Massa line of descendants. If I have understood correctly, as I really need to take some time to research how these types of family tree charts work, I think I have concluded the following as my line. Does this seem right??- all of this is assuming that baby Ippolita Perez Napolitano and the Prince of Castleforte- Salvatore are blood related.

Don Giovanni Massa (my 7x great grandfather!!) had a son, Don Cristoforo Massa (6x great grandfather), who had a son, Don Giuseppe Emanuele Massa (5x) (married to Ippolita Massa Valguarnera), who had a son, Don Salvatore Massa Valguarnera (4x) (our prince and godfather to baby Ippolita), who had an illegitimate daughter, Ippolita Perez Napolitano (3x), who had a son, Don Mariano DiStefano Perez (2x).......... and on down to me- A girl with no title, no riches, but a love of ancestry and dreams of what life in Italy was/is like

This is all assuming again, that Ippolita is really Salvatore's daughter and that I have interpreted the chart correctly. I do have another question- please tell me if I need to post as a new topic or you are tired of this one.

What are the numbers in the ( ) on the Massa chart? Are they birth and death dates? For example: C2 Don Salvatore ( 28-VII-1738 † 12-XII-1819) I do not understand why there is a mix of numbers and Roman numerals? Did he die in 1819? Which would be weird, bc the baby Ippolita (baptismal record) was born in 1819 and was married in 1839. I thought our Prince of Castleforte, Don Salvatore was in attendance at the wedding. Any light you can shed on this would be most helpful.

Also, this is just a random thought, but do you think it would be possible that D1: Donna Ippolita could be our baby Ippolita? It looks as if she is the daughter of Don Vitale( brother to the prince, Salvatore) and Melchiorre (our Ippolita's godmother). Would they have put their goddaughter and illegitimate daughter of the Prince as their own- since he had no legitimate children --- so she could at least be a part of the family "tree". Just a random thought?

Again, thank you for everything you have given and helped me with . You have opened a whole new world to me and my own descendants. Suzanne

[scraig32]

Please forgive me- I was mistaken and left out someone in my last post. My line would be

Don Giovanni Massa (my 8x great grandfather!!) had a son, Don Cristoforo Massa (7x great grandfather), who had a son, Don Giuseppe Emanuele Massa (6x) (married to Ippolita Massa Valguarnera), who had a son, Don Salvatore Massa Valguarnera (5x) (our prince and godfather to baby Ippolita), who had an illegitimate daughter, Marianna Napolitano (4x) who had a daughter, Ippolita Perez Napolitano (3x), who had a son, Don Mariano DiStefano Perez (2x).......... and on down to me- A girl with no title, no riches, but a love of ancestry and dreams of what life in Italy was/is like


This is all assuming again, that MARIANNA is really Salvatore's daughter and IPPOLITA is his granddaughter

SO SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION-- IT IS ALL JUMBLED IN MY MIND. APOLOGIES.

Suzanne

[PippoM]

Hi Suzanne,
your assumption about the sequence of ancestors is correct...if thre's some way to prove that Marianna Napolitano actually was Salvatore Massa's illegitimate daughter. I think it would be interesting to see the Prince's will, if they can be found.
As to your questions:
- yes, the numbers in parenthesis are birth and death dates; months are conventionally expressed by Roman numbers
- no, the Prince was not present at Ippolita's wedding; as it can be read in the attachments of the marriage, he had already passed, and left some goods to her. Instead, he attended at her baptism, where he was her Godfather.

[scraig32]

Awesome! Thank you again. That would indeed be interesting to see the Prince's will. Don't even know where I would look for it, but very neat all the same.

Thank you for the info on the roman numbers. Now I can add dates to my research more easily now that I understand.

Ok, that is good to know that the Prince was not present at the wedding, but at the baptism.

Thank you again for ALL of your help. You truly are an ancestry master!!!!

Suzanne

[scraig32]

Does this baptismal record for Ippolita Perez say that her birth took place on November 19. 1819 and that her baptism took place on November 21, 1819? Thank you so much


http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... ewsIndex=0

[PippoM]

Her baptism took place on day 20th, and birth "yesterday" (19).