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cedrone wrote: 08 Aug 2020, 01:01
Hi all.
I add the word missing in the declaration that you read and translated: it is 'cittadina' (citizen) :
... dall'unione naturale di essa dichiarante, cittadina italiana residente...
Regards.
Grazie, Cedrone!!! Yes, I can see it clearly now that you have pointed it out.
Are you able to read the second to last paragraph where it talks about the year 1943? I think it is paragraph 9. Maybe that is where it is mentions the Certificate that the mother presented confirming that she was not married?
... il certificato negativo di matrimonio rilasciato dal Comune di Napoli il 16 dicembre (?) 1943 che munito del mio visto inserisco nel volume degli allegati a questo registro.
cedrone wrote: 08 Aug 2020, 01:29
Yes, it is the date of the certificate:
... il certificato negativo di matrimonio rilasciato dal Comune di Napoli il 16 dicembre (?) 1943 che munito del mio visto inserisco nel volume degli allegati a questo registro.
Thank you again, cedrone. I don't think that I have seen this before in earlier records - i.e. where a mother presents such a certificate. Was this maybe a legal requirement in later civil records. I saw the word "legge" there. If you don't know that's fine. Thank you for your help anyway. It's appreciated.
A dimostrazione che nulla osta di fronte alla legge al presente riconoscimento la dichiarante mi ha esibito il certificato...
I'll look at the Civil Code, I think that it was so even before, but I do not remember to have seen a birth declaration made by a mother unmarried. I remember only one a bit different, the mother made such a declaration not at the birth, but later and not at the Stato Civile, but at a Notary.
cedrone wrote: 08 Aug 2020, 10:00
It's a very bad writing, but it seems so:
A dimostrazione che nulla osta di fronte alla legge al presente riconoscimento la dichiarante mi ha esibito il certificato...
I'll look at the Civil Code, I think that it was so even before, but I do not remember to have seen a birth declaration made by a mother unmarried. I remember only one a bit different, the mother made such a declaration not at the birth, but later and not at the Stato Civile, but at a Notary.
Grazie ancora, cedrone.
(Yes, the writing is really tricky to read. I think it might be because of the way it was scanned. It's slightly blurry and when you zoom in it just blurrs more. I found it somewhat clearer keeping the image small and using my magnifiers.)
I have seen other birth declarations made by the mother of the baby but I don't recall anything about a Certificate of Free State being presented.
I was thinking that "maybe" the mother was hoping to marry the father? I have seen "certificates of freedom to marry" included in marriage allegati before, but I have not seen one presented before with a birth record. (In some towns, and it seems like it may have been a requirement in some parishes in Naples?..... that a "Dichiarazione di Stato Libero (negativo di matrimonio) – Declaration of Free State (marriage negative) )" was necessary in order for a marriage to take place? The certificate was written mid-December and the baby was born a few weeks later.
For the marriage this certificate was necessary to prove that the woman was not already married. Probably she asked before the certificate as she was planning to recognize the child: usually they were registered as sons of "donna che non consente di essere nominata".
Should the mother be married it seems that this declaration was not possible, (but I'll look at the Code), the child was presumed of the mother's husband and if he was not the father he had to ask to not be considered the father (I do not know in which way). Even now I do not know how it works this matter.
Regards.
cedrone wrote: 08 Aug 2020, 01:01
Hi all.
I add the word missing in the declaration that you read and translated: it is 'cittadina' (citizen) :
... dall'unione naturale di essa dichiarante, cittadina italiana residente...
Regards.
Thank you Cedrone. Do you also think Vincenza/o’s occupation is Cittadina/o??
All very interesting and useful information.
My late father always said that his birth certificate had been destroyed in the war. His mother had a daughter two years earlier with the same man. They never married, I think she probably thought they may after the war was over, however, I don’t know the details as they never spoke of this as it was “una vergogna” that they didn’t have a father and was told he died in an accident. Neither of the children knew the fathers name/surname.
16/17 years ago before my aunt died, she had some roses sent to her and a phone call from a women in Sicily who said that she was her sister and that her father had never forgotten her or my father (Antonio), my aunt said that she didn’t have a father and hung up (we’ll never know who she was or be able to track her/that side of the family down). Their father obviously had another family in Sicily hence why he never married Maria Rosa, who lived in Naples but was born in Venice.
Maria Rosa died when my father was just four leaving the both the children as orphans, their only surviving relative aunt Vita denied her fiancé, who asked for her to put the children into an orphanage and to marry him, instead she chose to never marry and to look after her younger sisters children. She then passed away at the age of 82.
cedrone wrote: 08 Aug 2020, 01:29
Yes, it is the date of the certificate:
... il certificato negativo di matrimonio rilasciato dal Comune di Napoli il 16 dicembre (?) 1943 che munito del mio visto inserisco nel volume degli allegati a questo registro.
I can also see a date at the top (2) does it say .......5 agosto 1943??
Hi. I reply to your first message.
No, cittadina is not an occupation, it means 'citizen' as in 'US citizen', here it refers to the mother, 'cittadina italiana', that is citizen of the Kingdom of Italy, existing at that time.
Vincenza's occupation has been read (very bad writing!) as 'ostetrica' that is midwife, so very likely she assisted the mother at the birth and then acted as witness.
For the date at the top. I can't read the words immediately before, however in that place it's put the date in which the Official was put in his office, so it's not important for you.
cedrone wrote: 10 Aug 2020, 12:39
For the other long message. I must re-read carefully and think if I can find something to suggest you. Give me a bit of time.
Hi. At last I try to reply to your message. Excuse me for the long delay. I re-read all. The period is too recent to find registers online.
You wrote that your father had a sister, have you asked and seen her birth act? probably it was the same
as for your father.
I'd try to ask the available info about your father and the sister to the parish where certainly they have been baptized, that is to look for the baptism act and see what shows about the parents: only the name of the mother or also the father, married or not. It will be perhaps difficult to find the right parish, and I'll look if it is better to ask the diocese instead of the parish.
As to find your relatives in Sicilia, it seems a great problem. Also your aunt's sister who phoned probably died, so you should find her sons, hoping she told them all the facts.
You could try to write your story with the details you think necessary to a Sicilian newspaper or a blog online asking publication and hoping someone replies.
But why your grandmother didn't say the name of the father to the children?
Best regards.
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