Lisanti in Potenza

[pgerald]

I had also looked for the birth record of Bartolomeo but I failed to find it.

Is it possible they lived in a different town in the province before living in the town of Potenza?

Have you found their marriage record (Donato and Rosa)?

Unfortunately, I've had the same inability to find Bartolomeo's record in Italy, but I do know he is Gerardo & Vincenzo's brother. He was the signatory on Gerardo's naturalization papers.

Of course, it's quite possible they lived anywhere else in the province of Potenza and then moved to the municipality of PZ, but I've yet to figure out where that might have been, or if they ever did live in the town of Potenza. And unfortunately, since I don't know their original town, I've been unable to find the marriage record of Donato and Rosa - that would be the real key! There was a widowed Margherita Lisanti Manto, parents listed as Donato Lisanti and Rosa, who died in New York in 1925 at age 63, which implies she was born around 1862. There's little info about her (I haven't yet searched more thoroughly), but if that info is correct, they would've been married sometime 1860-1862, I suppose (rather than closer to 1866 when Gerardo was born).

[AngelaGrace56]

Of course, I wish it were so, too! This might be a useful check - I know he has a brother born in 1871 named Vincenzo. There's a Vincenzo Lisanti in the 1871 Potenza birth records (attaching here). I'm having difficulty reading the handwriting, but perhaps you or someone else who sees this record can see if the parents are the same as the Gerardo Cilanti/Lisanti you found above!

In the 1871 record that you posted for Vincenzo Lisanti, the child’s parents are Domenico Lisanti, 37 yo, (son of the deceased Francesco Lisanti), and Vita Cresenza Pace, (daughter of the deceased Vicenzo Pace.)

The first record posted here is for a Gerardo Cilenti, not Lisanti, as you suggested.

I’m 99% sure that the following two records are of your great great grandfather’s syblings. I haven’t got a lot of time to search further at the moment but hopefully someone else will be able to chime in and locate further records for you. Most of the Potenza records are online, they have been for many years now, you don't need to go to a Family History Centre to view them. The earlier ones can be viewed at this site here: http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/?q=gallery



Birth No 396: Rocco Lisanti
Registered 25 August 1876, town of Potenza
Born: 10.20 pm, 24 August 1876, Potenza

Father: Donato Lisanti, 46 yo (c.1830), Guardiano, living in Potenza

Mother: Rosa Zaccagnino, Donato’s wife, a cucitrice, living with him.

Baby boy was presented and named Rocco.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=781730


Birth No 251: Salvatore Lisanti

Registered 21 April 1879, Potenza
Born 6.30 pm, 19 April 1879, Potenza

Father: Donato Lisanti, 49 yo (c.1830), Guardiano, living in Potenza.

Mother: Anna Rosa Zaccagnino

Baby boy was presented and named Salvatore.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=781730


Edit to Add:

Following on, here is one more:

Birth No 287: Bartolomeo Lisanti

Registered: 24 June 1867, Potenza
Born: 20 June 1867, Potenza

Same parents except the record tells us that Donato Lisanti was born in Avigliano, but living in Potenza. So Avigliano is where you should be searching for Donato’s birth record.

It also tells us that Rosa’s father was named Angelo.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2043547

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Following on from my previous post here, I think that this is possibily the Vincenzo Lisanti you were looking for earlier:

1871 Birth No 526: Vincenzo Lisanti: Same Parents: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... -L949-BFY8?

and here is another sybling:

1869 Birth: Vita Crescenza, Maria Luigia, Caterina Lisanti (Same Parents): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2043547

Sorry, I haven't got time to translate these records. You can post them to the Translations Section of the Forum if you need help with them.

Angela

[pgerald]

Thank you very much for all of this research - this is great information! I was able to find a few more siblings of Gerardo born in Potenza (1860, 1863), meaning his siblings were born in 1860, 1863, 1867, 1869, 1871, 1876, and 1879. Unfortunately, I am still unable to find Gerardo Lisanti as having been born in Potenza in any of the intervening years. Is it possible that the index located in the back of each year is incomplete or that an entry might be incorrectly placed in the index? To make it more difficult, some of his siblings have slightly different birth years listed on their naturalization in the U.S. or inferred from census/death records in New York! Was this common? Nonetheless, I'm quite certain of these siblings, since the dates are off ~1-2 years, only, and the parents listed in U.S. records are the same as in Italy.

As for finding Donato Lisanti in Avigliano, I searched from 1822-1840 (estimated birth year is 1830 per your findings) and found no such name in any of the indices. There were not many Lisanti in that town, either 1 or 2, but plenty of Zaccagnini (Donato's wife's surname).The same issues I mentioned above could apply here with indices, but I'm not sure of the best approach if the index cannot be trusted.

I will do my best to translate some of the records you've found, and will post to the handwriting-specific forum as needed. I'd be grateful for any advice on next steps given my current stumbling

[AngelaGrace56]

You are very welcome for the help. I could see you and Darkerhorse were having problems navigating and reading the records and as I had some time yesterday was able to help. I'm on my way out shortly but will try and answer your questions later.

Somehow, I omitted to type that Donato's father's name was Francesco and so I'm wondering whether the previous birth record your posted for a Vincenzo Lisanti, was actually a nephew of Donato, therefore, the father, Domenico Lisanti is possibly a brother of Donato's? That Domenico's father's name was also Francesco. Also, while searching the Avigliano birth records I found a birth record for another child born to that Domenico Lisanti and Vita Crescenza Pace, so maybe the Lisanti's were only in Avigliano for a time and then moved to Potenza?

Meanwhile, are you able to post links of the other children born to Donato and Rosa for me to look at. I'm wondering whether one of them could in fact be Gerardo???

One more thing, the marriage usually took place in the bride's place of birth, so if we can establish which town Rosa was born in, then we should be able to locate Donato and Rosa's marriage plus supporting documents. Her surname appears in both Avigliano and Potenza (and probably in other towns in Potenza as well, I haven't checked at this stage).

Must rush.

Angela

[darkerhorse]

Some indexes (at least in Sicily) have a Part II following the main index, usually pretty brief. I think the records for Part II appear after the main records (after December).

I'm not sure why they a Part II was needed.

[pgerald]

You are very welcome for the help. I could see you and Darkerhorse were having problems navigating and reading the records and as I had some time yesterday was able to help. I'm on my way out shortly but will try and answer your questions later.

Excellent, thank you! I hope my answers/documents here are helpful.

Somehow, I omitted to type that Donato's father's name was Francesco and so I'm wondering whether the previous birth record your posted for a Vincenzo Lisanti, was actually a nephew of Donato, therefore, the father, Domenico Lisanti is possibly a brother of Donato's? That Domenico's father's name was also Francesco. Also, while searching the Avigliano birth records I found a birth record for another child born to that Domenico Lisanti and Vita Crescenza Pace, so maybe the Lisanti's were only in Avigliano for a time and then moved to Potenza?

I did notice the birth record in Avigliano with the parents as Domenico & Vita Crescenza. I don't know if the name Vita Crescenza is common, but the fact that Donato's one documented daughter (Caterina Lisanti) has the same beginning of her name might suggest a relation. Thank you for the additional info on Donato's own father - I'll keep that in mind as I continue to search for his birth. There's also an 1829 record in Avigliano (first page also attached) for what seems like an Angela Lisanti born to Franceso Lisanti (di Bucino?) figlio di Manzia(?) I can't quite get those names!

Some indexes (at least in Sicily) have a Part II following the main index, usually pretty brief. I think the records for Part II appear after the main records (after December).

Yes, I had initially not seen those supplementary records when searching, but eventually noticed them in Potenza and Avigliano. I probably have given those less attention, though, so it's worth another shot.

Meanwhile, are you able to post links of the other children born to Donato and Rosa for me to look at. I'm wondering whether one of them could in fact be Gerardo???

Surely, I've attached them all here (as saved photos, rather than as links - I hope that's ok!) Domenico is the child that darkerhorse found previously, and Angelo is the first born (that I could find). It would be interesting if that's the case, but they both seem to have a significant-enough presence in Queens, New York (marriages, and two documented children each).

One more thing, the marriage usually took place in the bride's place of birth, so if we can establish which town Rosa was born in, then we should be able to locate Donato and Rosa's marriage plus supporting documents. Her surname appears in both Avigliano and Potenza (and probably in other towns in Potenza as well, I haven't checked at this stage).

Interesting, that is very useful to know. I did find two-three possible records for Rosa - I'll post them in the next reply (limited in the # of attachments).

[pgerald]

And here are the three [Rosa/Anna] Maria Zaccagnino found in Avigliano around the expected time, given her listed age in the birth records of Gerardo's siblngs. The two Rosa Maria's (both born in 1836) are more likely, but you also pointed out that her name also included Anna in at least one record. These are just the first pages - I have the other side of those records saved, too, but am again limited in the # of attachments.

Grazie mill!

[AngelaGrace56]

I've actually just located Angelo's 1860 Birth Record and Domenico's 1863 record. I'll just take a look at the other records you've posted here and read through your replies.

On Angelo's birth record there is an annotation saying that he married on 21 February 1884 a Gerarda Latriasco , (need to check the spelling), figlia di Nicola. You might like to look for that record.

So there should be three more children born to Donato and Rosa - your Gerardo, the Margarita that you mentioned, and I suspect there is a Francesco somewhere. Francesco would be the oldest son if they followed the Italian naming tradition and it seems like they did.

Edit to Add: Domenico Lisanti marries on 27 February 1890 Maria .....

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

And here are the three [Rosa/Anna] Maria Zaccagnino found in Avigliano around the expected time, given her listed age in the birth records of Gerardo's siblngs. The two Rosa Maria's (both born in 1836) are more likely, but you also pointed out that her name also included Anna in at least one record. These are just the first pages - I have the other side of those records saved, too, but am again limited in the # of attachments.

Grazie mill!

Rosa's father's name was Angelo so I don't think that any of these birth record's are the Rosa we are looking for, but I may be wrong. With the Italian naming tradition, the first son is always named after the paternal grandfather, so that is why I am wondering whether there may have been a Francesco before Angelo. (When the second son is born, that child is named after the maternal grandfather.) The people from Potenza generally seemed to stick to this tradition, but not always.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I've actually just located Angelo's 1860 Birth Record and Domenico's 1863 record. I'll just take a look at the other records you've posted here and read through your replies.

On Angelo's birth record there is an annotation saying that he married on 21 February 1884 a Gerarda Satriano , figlia di Nicola. You might like to look for that record.

So there should be three more children born to Donato and Rosa - your Gerardo, the Margarita that you mentioned, and I suspect there is a Francesco somewhere. Francesco would be the oldest son if they followed the Italian naming tradition and it seems like they did.

Edit to Add: Domenico Lisanti marries on 27 February 1890 Maria .....

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

I've actually just located Angelo's 1860 Birth Record and Domenico's 1863 record. I'll just take a look at the other records you've posted here and read through your replies.

On Angelo's birth record there is an annotation saying that he married on 21 February 1884 a Gerarda Satriano , figlia di Nicola. You might like to look for that record.

So there should be three more children born to Donato and Rosa - your Gerardo, the Margarita that you mentioned, and I suspect there is a Francesco somewhere. Francesco would be the oldest son if they followed the Italian naming tradition and it seems like they did.

Edit to Add: Domenico Lisanti marries on 27 February 1890 Maria Lucia Vendegna

Angela

1884 Marriage No 20 of Angelo Lisanti and Gerarda Satriano:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2043547

1890 Marriage No 16 of Domenico Lisanti and Maria Lucia Vendegna
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2043547


If you post any of these records for translations, please add the links as I am doing here. They are much easier to work with than the images, plus they take up less space on the forum. Thanks.


Angela

[darkerhorse]

Have you looked for alternative spellings like Li Santi, Isanti, Santi, etc.?

[AngelaGrace56]

Some indexes (at least in Sicily) have a Part II following the main index, usually pretty brief. I think the records for Part II appear after the main records (after December).

I'm not sure why they a Part II was needed.

The reason why so many records were placed in Part II in these Potenza (1866-1874) records is because there wasn’t enough room in Part I. There were so many records for those years. Normally, the types of records that you may find in Supplementary Birth Records are records that don’t fit the norm – out of town births, late registrations, foundlings (Trovatelli in Potenza) etc You'll notice these from 1875. You would see this also in large towns in Sicily.

Hope that helps.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you very much for all of this research - this is great information! I was able to find a few more siblings of Gerardo born in Potenza (1860, 1863), meaning his siblings were born in 1860, 1863, 1867, 1869, 1871, 1876, and 1879.

Unfortunately, I am still unable to find Gerardo Lisanti as having been born in Potenza in any of the intervening years. Is it possible that the index located in the back of each year is incomplete or that an entry might be incorrectly placed in the index?

Absolutely. I’ve had a really good look again today and haven’t been able to locate Gerardo’s birth record. There are several reasons I can think of. It is quite possible that his parents may not have registered his birth for whatever reason. I have seen this happen before.

A very common reason for a record not being located in the index is due to clerical error – the clerk omitted to transfer the information of the birth to the index. With so many birth records I can see how this might happen. Today I’ve checked your indices again and also gone through and looked through the actual birth records, for several years, for the month of May, when Gerardo was born. He obviously knew his date of birth but possibly not the year of birth?

Another reason for not being able to locate the birth in the index is because when the records were microfilmed two pages may have been turned simultaneously. I’ve often seen pages missing in microfilmed records. Also easily done. I’ve seen pages filmed completely out of order and indices placed randomly amongst the records. We don’t know what may have happened prior to when the records were microfilmed, or even on the day the records were filmed. The registers are very big, and a lot of the pages, because of their age and the conditions that they may have been stored in, are often delicate. If the books were dropped they’d quite possibly come apart and the pages would scatter, and become disordered.



To make it more difficult, some of his siblings have slightly different birth years listed on their naturalization in the U.S. or inferred from census/death records in New York! Was this common? Nonetheless, I'm quite certain of these siblings, since the dates are off ~1-2 years, only, and the parents listed in U.S. records are the same as in Italy.

Yes, I’m sure it would’ve happen. Maybe it’s best if someone else confirms this as I’m not in the US and haven’t needed to do a lot of research there.

As for finding Donato Lisanti in Avigliano, I searched from 1822-1840 (estimated birth year is 1830 per your findings) and found no such name in any of the indices. There were not many Lisanti in that town, either 1 or 2, but plenty of Zaccagnini (Donato's wife's surname).The same issues I mentioned above could apply here with indices, but I'm not sure of the best approach if the index cannot be trusted.

No, there arn’t a lot of Lisanti in Avigliano. I searched there too with the same result. Maybe the clerk made an error in those two birth records where Avigliano is mentioned. You could post those two records to our translations section just in case I have misinterpreted what is written. I doubt I did but it’s always good to get another opinion. Normally indices can be trusted, but I remember years ago I actually went through the records page by page, just in case, and I indexed my records. My towns were very small though so it was do-able.



I will do my best to translate some of the records you've found, and will post to the handwriting-specific forum as needed.

If you do translate the records, you can still post them and we can check them over for you. Don't struggle with them though. There are lots of good people here happy to extract the vital details for you.

I'd be grateful for any advice on next steps given my current stumbling


You may want to start up a new thread, but link this thread here so that there is no doubling of efforts. Just write down a brief, and to the point, summary of what’s happened, and ask if anyone can help you with locating the town of birth for Gerardo and also for Donato. There are brilliant genealogists on the forum who may have other methods of helping with this. If you are absolutely sure that Gerardo’s parents were Donato and Rosa, and that his syblings are the ones that we have found, I’m a littled mythed as to why Gerardo would’ve been born elsewhere, unless his parents left the town of Potenza and then returned.

You could also try Potenza, Basilicata Genealogy Facebook. Someone might know of the family there.

By the way, where did Donato and Rosa die? It would be so helpful if they died in Potenza. Finding their Death Records would tell us where they were born. From what you have said though, it sounds like they moved to the US.

Angela