Dual Citizenship - Need Guidance

[debferrara]

Hi,

I am hoping to apply for dual citizenship and think I have 2 pathways, but both seem a little complicated. I'm hoping someone can suggest where to go from here, or advise who I could speak to..

My grandfather (my father's father) was born in Sambuca in 1890 and came over in 1906. I now have a copy of his birth certificate, and I've found a few other documents on Ancestry. The census records are conflicting as to whether he naturalized. I have not found any naturalization documents, so I ordered a search on USCIS (which I understand will take months). His name is spelled several ways on the various documents (Ferraro, Ferrara, Farrara), so I don't know if that will be an issue - and I've heard if there is no record of naturalization, the census records are used. My dad was born in 1922, so I'd need 1920 and 1930. The 1920 census says naturalized and the 1930 census says "UN" (Ancestry says this means not naturalized). Only if USCIS finds records saying he naturalized after 1922 will it be clear. (I remember my grandfather and honestly don't think he did, but I'm pretty sure my word won't count! )

My grandmother (my mother's mom) was born in Ariano in 1904. She came over in 1906, and married in 1923. (My grandfather was born in the USA.) My mom was born in 1924. I have a copy of my grandmother's petition for naturalization from 1943. Is this all I need? I know this is usually the more difficult path, but considering the unknown naturalization status with my paternal grandfather, would I be better off going through my maternal grandmother?

Thanks for any help,
Deb

[afecad]

If the census records show NA in the column, that indicates he was claiming he was "Naturalized", but again, many may have claimed that instead of "AI" for Alien with fears of being deported, the other option is "Pa" meaning first papers, but not naturalized at the time. I'm not sure on "UN" being official, from my notes it's only the three I mentioned.

USCIS's letter will still be required, at least that was what I was told. Just to note as I had one on another relative, they will note Census records in their search along with mentioning the ancestor's local county courthouse.

From my experience, my Great-Grandfather claimed "Na" on a couple census records but no response from USCIS yet as I noted in another thread to validate. Also pay's to check the local county courthouse your Grandfather resided in, as they may or may not have his Naturalization paperwork on file.

First names and surname inconsistences were deemed a problem by my Italian Law Firm handling my case, so with their help and recommendation I found a US Based Lawyer in Pennsylvania to resolve the discrepancies on my Grandfather's Birth Certificate. The important documents are the official copies of birth, marriage and death, don't be too concerned with the other documents and just make sure your name and your parents matches their birth records and etc, connect the dots and have great continuity between all.

Sounds like your case is a 1948 law, that is through your Maternal Grandmother, much like mine but through my GGM.

[debferrara]

Thanks so much for your help. Yes, I also have a local search in process. He lived in NY and NJ. NY found nothing, but I'm still waiting on NJ findings.

So if I go through my Maternal Grandmother, where do I start? Do I gather as much info as I possibly can, and then hire someone here in the US... or in Italy - or both? I know I'll need all the docs translated and possibly will need help locating anything missing (as well as an official copy of her birth certificate). And just to confirm (from your research) the fact that my grandmother married an American citizen does not automatically make her a citizen?

How far along are you in the process?

[qualdom]

I also haven't found anything regarding my GGF's naturalization, although my family insists that he naturalized and "NA" was listed on the census prior to my grandfather's birth. He also served in the US military so it seems highly unlikely that he didn't naturalize. So I will most likely have to go through my GGM and pursue a 1948 case.

If you are certain that you require a 1948 case, I would collect all vital records on your own (both US and Italian) and then contact an attorney like Luigi Paiano or Arturo Grasso and have them reviewed. I wouldn't apostille or translate anything until you get the green light from Paiano....it could be a waste of money if it turns out that something needs to be amended.

I strongly advise against some of these full service dual citizenship businesses. They charge exorbitant fees for what they claim are "legal services" but in reality it's just document procurement.

I would stick with a person like Paiano....his fees seem to truly be for legal services rendered and it's clear that he doesn't take a case unless he is certain that he will win.

If your grandmother married in 1923, it was after the passage of the Cable Act, which reversed the effects of the Expatriation Act of 1907.

Wikipedia:
"The law held that all wives acquired their husband's nationality upon any marriage occurring after March 2, 1907.[1] Thus, the immigrant wife of an American man immediately became a US citizen upon marriage, but an American woman who married a foreigner lost her citizenship if her husband was not naturalized"

[afecad]

Thanks so much for your help. Yes, I also have a local search in process. He lived in NY and NJ. NY found nothing, but I'm still waiting on NJ findings.

So if I go through my Maternal Grandmother, where do I start? Do I gather as much info as I possibly can, and then hire someone here in the US... or in Italy - or both? I know I'll need all the docs translated and possibly will need help locating anything missing (as well as an official copy of her birth certificate). And just to confirm (from your research) the fact that my grandmother married an American citizen does not automatically make her a citizen?

How far along are you in the process?

I have been looking into this process for a number of years, but doing it myself (though I read is possible and some have had success) seemed like a complicated task, so we decided to go with ICA and pay the cost due to 1948 case. They have had a great success rate with cases getting through the Italian courts, is it guaranteed, no but we are trying. It's not cheap by any means to use ICA, but they offer much and do most of the legwork, though I did supply them with as much as I could to speed up the process. As well, they will include up to two adults in your family in the petition, that is siblings or parents at no additional cost. Also due to a 1948 case, you will need a Lawyer in Italy to present your case in the Italian courts, not sure there is a way around this and for me the $ is well spent.

It's been around 3 months since we started the process as it took sometime to retain ICA as they are backed up due to the high influx of Americans seeking dual citizenship. All I have done is provide them with as much info and documents as I had, this makes the process go faster.

I suggest you try obtain your ancestors birth records in Italy, familysearch.org may have them scanned, these are not "Official" but it will help you in the process of getting them in Italy. If you know birth dates and the comune, that will help even more so. Finding the names takes some time, but many on here will help you if you have no success.

Then I suggest you get all certified birth, marriage and death records of every person in line to the ancestor you plan to use, in PA I used vitalchek, not sure on NY and NJ, I know NY has different laws in obtaining records that make it difficult. In PA, marriage records are held by the County, not the state for example.

ICA will help you do everything required and they have been great in communication and I have no complaints as of this time. Do you have a budget for what you will or want to spend to gain dual citizenship?

I do not know the answer to your question on your Grandmother marrying an American and if that made her a citizen of the US? I know there are some laws that changed things back in the day. Both of my Great-Grandparents were from Italy, see some notes below with respect to my case, this is from my initial inquiry with ICA who I then retained and they are also staying though I have no evidence my Great-Grandfather naturalized, the census records alone seem to be enough to limit him as an option:

With regard to your case: unfortunately, you won’t be able to claim Italian citizenship through your Great-Grandfather since he naturalized before 1912 (according to all the census records).

FYI, Italian ancestors who became US citizens before July 1st, 1912 could not transmit citizenship (Law n. 555 of June 13th, 1912) to their children regardless of when they were born. This information is listed on the websites if all consulates.

Nevertheless, you would still be able to claim Italian citizenship through your Great-Grandmother who most likely acquired US citizenship along with her husband.

What happened at the time was that female spouses naturalized together with their spouses AUTOMATICALLY or acquired US citizenship due to the marriage (until the 1922 US cable act - effective September 22, 1922).
Before 1922, women in the US could not acquire (nor lose) citizenship other than through their husband. In fact, prior to that date women followed the status civitatis of the man they married and automatically acquired US citizenship via marriage.

Based on the Italian Constitutional Court judgment n. 87 of 1975 and of the Italian Supreme Court judgment n. 4466 of 2009, women who acquired a foreign nationality “involuntarily and automatically” because of marriage retain their Italian citizenship, and they are therefore able to transmit it to their children.

Therefore, an Italian woman who automatically acquired citizenship through her husband, according to the aforementioned decision, would not have lost her original Italian citizenship (as she did not willingly renounce it) and could validly transfer it to subsequent generations.

Since your grandfather (the son of a woman in the Italian line) was born before 1948, your case can only be successful through a judicial proceeding.

Under the Italian Law Italian-born women, and women of Italian descent, could only transmit Italian citizenship to their sons and daughters born after 1948 (year of the Italian constitution, which established that women and men have equal rights).

You can find more info here: http://italiancitizenshipassistance.com/court-cases/.

[qualdom]

Afecad,

Does Marco Permunian actually litigate these cases himself or does ICA work with a law firm? I've watched many of his videos and it's clear that he's very knowledgeable...I'm just a bit sceptical of these agencies.

[afecad]

I strongly advise against some of these full service dual citizenship businesses. They charge exorbitant fees for what they claim are "legal services" but in reality it's just document procurement.

We did lot's of research before deciding to go with ICA and obtaining certified records in Italy is often not too easy, that goes with actually being there myself and using a local translator and having no success, besides a poor photo copy of another ancestor. I also emailed Isca sullo Ionio directly, in Italian, requesting the records and question on fees and got no response after multiple attempts. Covid has also made the process more complicated, courts are now doing Zoom hearings.

If I did not have a 1948 case, I may have not opted to go another route, as I know someone who did it themselves but did not have the same level of complexity and was willing to help.

I doubt Paiano will work for free and from my research his costs are in line with ICA, but ICA has different tiers to choose from and great reviews as well. Also you will need to retain a Lawyer in the US regardless if you have US birth certificate/name discrepancies as I already detailed, which is an additional cost regardless.

[afecad]

Afecad,

Does Marco Permunian actually litigate these cases himself or does ICA work with a law firm? I've watched many of his videos and it's clear that he's very knowledgeable...I'm just a bit sceptical of these agencies.

ICA is a division of Permunian Law:

https://permunianlaw.com/about-us/team/

I'm not sure who will handle the case in Italy, but it might be Andrea Permunian.

This is everything that is include in the service we picked:

Telephone consultation (no time limit);
· Genealogy research, if needed
· Retrieval of all the remaining documents (in Italy, U.S. / UK and – with some limitations - anywhere in the world) needed to apply for Italian citizenship;
· Handling of the legalization process of any US / UK records (Apostille, Correction, Emendavit etc.);
· Professional Eng>Ita translations of all the records as required by the law;
· Preparation of all the forms needed to be filed by each applicant as well as drafting of any legal documents needed.
· Handling (beginning to end) of the process of preparation the applicant’s file which will be handled directly and exclusively by an Italian expert in dual citizenship;
· Management of the whole trial at the Italian Court of Rome that will be handled directly by one of our citizenship attorneys.
· Passport request;
· Registration with AIRE.


I was unsure at first but after research, I felt it was the best option and even then it may take 2 to 3 years, or even more to process. We both accepted the risk we may lose, but that alone is worth it.

My Wife will have to pass B1 Italian proficiency test to get her passport by law. I do not need to even learn Italian, nor does my Brother or Mother, but I'm learning Italian regardless and may take the test at some point.

[debferrara]

Wow, lots of info! I originally was going to wait for the USCIS results for my grandfather before making a decision, but I think I'll start gathering information for my grandmother as this seems the way to go. Cost-wise I don't know what to expect since this is a more complicated process. I have a friend who went through it, but had a simple case and costs were reasonable. This is something I've thought about for awhile, so I'll pursue and find out.

Again, thank you for all your help.

[qualdom]

My Wife will have to pass B1 Italian proficiency test to get her passport by law. I do not need to even learn Italian, nor does my Brother or Mother, but I'm learning Italian regardless and may take the test at some point.

That's a wise decision to learn the language. It's good to start now as language acquisition becomes more difficult with age.

[qualdom]

Wow, lots of info! I originally was going to wait for the USCIS results for my grandfather before making a decision, but I think I'll start gathering information for my grandmother as this seems the way to go. Cost-wise I don't know what to expect since this is a more complicated process. I have a friend who went through it, but had a simple case and costs were reasonable. This is something I've thought about for awhile, so I'll pursue and find out.

Again, thank you for all your help.

I would start collecting all of your vital records and see where you are in regards to names and dates of birth matching up. Right now I'm trying to amend errors for living relatives (it's actually amazing how many errors I have found, for example my mother's name is incorrect on my own b/c). Discrepancies on birth records can be just as insurmountable as a naturalization. Even if you end up not pursuing dual citizenship, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have those records as a keepsake.