Denmark and Germany

[darkerhorse]

Is there anyone here who's experienced with genealogical records from Denmark and Germany?

[MarcuccioV]

Is there anyone here who's experienced with genealogical records from Denmark and Germany?

Germany, yes. I have several branches on my father's side that lead back to Germany, or Kingdom of Germany, or Holy Roman Empire...

[darkerhorse]

There was a couple married in Denmark in 1769. Place of birth for bride and groom weren't recorded as far as I know. I believe the wife is Danish but I suspect the husband is German because of his personal name and surname. The names are much more common in Germany than in Scandinavia, and, in subsequent generations, the family didn’t follow the Scandinavian tradition of adding “son” or “daughter” to the father’s personal name. They just continued with the same surname.

The couple's son was born in Denmark and he moved to Norway c.1800. I say “moved” because Denmark and Norway were under united rule at the time. He married a Norwegian woman in Norway, and their son married a German-Norwegian woman in Norway whose father came from Hanover, Germany.

So, if the alpha male was, indeed, German, he might have come from Hanover, where his grandson’s father-in-law was from. Just a guess about the place, but it could be anywhere in Germany. Or, the alpha male might, in fact, have been Danish after all.

In any event, I’ve checked Ancestry and Family Search with no luck, and I've searched some Danish records but no German records. I don’t know what the next step should be.

[MarcuccioV]

Alpha male name, birthdate..?

[darkerhorse]

One Family Tree on MyHeritage has the following, don't know how accurate it is:


Johan Gottlieb Böhme
1736 - 1820
Birth: Between 1736 and 1741

Marriage: Marriage to: Else Böhme (født Poulsdatter)
Dec 8 1769
Garnisons Kirke, Kbh.

Death: Mar 2 1820
Staureby, Skelby Sogn, Falster

Family members
Parents: Hans Hansen Carl Böhme
Nicoline Kirstine Böhme (født Mortensdatter)

Wife: Else Böhme (født Poulsdatter)
1741 - ?
Children: Jens Gottlieb Böhme
1776 - ?
Christian Friderich Böhme
1781 - ?
Martin Paaske Böhme
1787 - 1859
Svend Friderich Böhme
1778 - ?
Poul Jensen Böhme
1785 - ?
Jacob Niendus Böhme
1789 - ?

My direct ancestor is son, Svend who moved to Norway c.1800.

Bohme later spelled Bohm. That surname is much more common in Germany than in Denmark or Norway.

The dots above the "o" suggest German but I don't know if that is original or added by the author. I think "o" with a slash is more Scandinavian.

[MarcuccioV]

The "dots" over the 'o' are called an umlaut. The name is Germanically pronounced closer to "Beer-ma". Let me do some research...

[MarcuccioV]

Just did some parameter searching so far (along with my knowledge of the construction & origination of Germanic surnames).

Like Italy, surnames were not common to Germany except in the cases of Royalty or peerage before about 1500. Subsequently, surnames were slowly added to differentiate families and individuals as the population grew.

While most areas of Germany had adopted surname usage by the 1600-1700's, some lagged behind and didn't fall into line until the 1800's, making it difficult to do genealogical research.

The fact that "alpha's" father had the names of "Hans Hansen", indicates a hint of the older way of naming (Scandinavians kept the form). Occasionally if confusion occurred, one would go by their birthplace (using words like 'von', meaning "from").

This seems to be the case here, as there is a Böhme, Germany in Lower Saxony about halfway between Hanover (which you mention) and the current Danish border.

No birth records yet, but Han Hansen was likely born in/around Böhme about the time the surnames were being issued/required (or maybe a generation or 2 before).

If I find more I will give an update...

[darkerhorse]

Thanks.

Note that Johan's "mother" appears to have a Scandinavian name - Nicoline Mortensdatter.

In succeeding generations, the surname Bohm is retained but all the women they marry in Norway followed the Scandinavian naming convention of changing at each generation.

The one exception is Johan's grandson Frederich who married a woman named Thorine Cartsens whose father was Johan Henrik David Cartsens from Hanover, Germany and mother was Thorine Syversdatter/Syversen from Norway.

To me, the repeated surname is the strongest evidence of non-Scandinavian origin.

No one on that side of the family, including males with the surname Bohm, has taken a DNA test.

[darkerhorse]

What are you thinking his father's original name was?

[MarcuccioV]

What are you thinking his father's original name was?

I'm not sure when Saxony fell into line with adding surnames. The fact that Hans includes "Hansen" indicates either a transition period (ie: he was simply born Hans, son of Hans and the surname was added based on birthplace/residence) or that happened in a previous gen but the naming ritual was retained.

In short, there may NOT have been a previous "surname".

Here's an example from my father's direct paternal line:

My 9GGf (as far as I can go on my direct paternal line) had a son (my 8GGf) who immigrated to the US (NY) through Amsterdam. He was born in Kleve, Germany (near the current Holland border) and later lived in/near Arnhem (currently Holland) where the Rhine and Waal rivers meet.

When he boarded the Dutch East India ship, he gave a Dutch-form surname of "van Cleef" (from Kleve -- I carry a variant spelling of that as my surname). His father followed him a few years later after he was widowed, using the same name (even though he was born in a different town deeper in Westphalia).

Someone doing research on the family uncovered a surname of "Waldyke" (old German form). Turns out on the north side of the Waal river (between Arnhem and Nijmegen, just west of the current Dutch/German border) is a road or path named "Waaldijk" (using the Dutch form).

I haven't made any inroads on that yet, but my guess is the family originated there, but because the river is "diked" and flooded often, that might explain why my 9GGf was born further away in NW Germany.

The possibilities are endless. There may never be an acceptable answer.

[darkerhorse]

So, was his name Karl Bohme or Hans Hansen, or something else?

[MarcuccioV]

So, was his name Karl Bohme or Hans Hansen, or something else?

"Karl" may have been a middle name so as to differentiate if there was another "Hans Hansen" nearby, prior to surname adoption. Again, it could also be just traditional naming continuing for a couple of generations AFTER the surnames were adopted, owing to either habit or thought that the surname wouldn't "stick".

Could also be another relative's name (such as a grandparent). Based on my family research, I'd say his given name would be "Hans Karl", with the "Hansen" being a family identifier. Böhme was no doubt adopted from the town/village/area.

At this point it's all guesswork. I'm basing my opinion on examples I can find in my own tree, both on my paternal direct line and a few Germanic lines that fall in the middle, from spouses that married into the various UK lines.

There doesn't seem to be any baptism/Christening documentation, which is what I normally find for Germanic relatives. Also Germany was still fractured around this time period and it took some time for everyone to get on the same page (like I stated above, in some jurisdictions, surnames didn't become mandated until the 1800's).

[darkerhorse]

I have documentation corroborating the marriage and children of Johan Gottlieb Bohme and Else Poulsdatter, but none for his "parents". I'm not convinced they are, in fact, his parents. There seems to be contradictory evidence online.

[MarcuccioV]

I have documentation corroborating the marriage and children of Johan Gottlieb Bohme and Else Poulsdatter, but none for his "parents". I'm not convinced they are, in fact, his parents. There seems to be contradictory evidence online.

Contradictory evidence is commonplace online. But it shouldn't be given more or less weight without in-depth research (if that is possible). I've seen the less likely outcome turn out to be the correct one often enough to not make snap judgements.

The Böhme would indicate to me without much doubt that there IS a connection of some kind to the geographic location of that name, ESPECIALLY since it lies midway between what is now Denmark and Hanover in Germany.

When, how and why are the variables. If you are looking for a concrete answer, I'm afraid I don't have one.

Whether or not Johan is Hans Karl's son, nephew, etc is uncertain, but I wouldn't rule out a family connection. The "Gottlieb" again could be an inherited family name, but it is mostly certainly German in origin (Love of God) than Scandinavian.

I think you're on the right track that his roots are German, although the details remain unclear...

[MarcuccioV]

Two sites for further research if you're so inclined: ggsmn.org (fee applies for full access, I am a member) & germangenealogygroup.com (this one I'm not familiar with)...