As a nation state, Italy has emerged only in 1871. Until then the country was politically divided into a large number of independant cities, provinces and islands. The currently available evidences point out to a dominant Etruscan, Greek and Roman cultural influence on today's Italians.
joetucciarone wrote: 07 Sep 2021, 11:57
Hi Angela - I'm sorry you're having trouble opening the link. If you send me your email in a private message, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the pdf.
Joe
Whoops, I think things are getting lost in translation. I don't need a copy because I have a copy on my computer. It is 22 pages in length. I downloaded a few months ago and I can read it fine. I just wanted to post the link to it here on this forum for others to see.
So the pdf that you have posted on the other forum, can you actually open it, from the forum. I wonder if others can. It doesn't open for me. I'm using firefox at the moment so that might have something to do with it. I'll try my tablet later which has chrome and something else on it. That might make a difference?
Hi Angela - I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. I have no trouble opening Russo's pdf on my iMac, using the Safari browser. Here's the link to the file in case anyone else would like to try to open it. I hope someone will let us know if it works, or not!
joetucciarone wrote: 07 Sep 2021, 12:28
Hi Angela - I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. I have no trouble opening Russo's pdf on my iMac, using the Safari browser. Here's the link to the file in case anyone else would like to try to open it. I hope someone will let us know if it works, or not!
I've just tried clicking on your link here and nothing's happening. I've also tried right clicking on it and clicking on "open in new tab" and it looks like it might open but instead I get a blank page. I haven't tried my tablet but will do say later as I need to go off line now. It will be interesting to see if other's can open it. Thanks anyway.
Maybe your Firefox browser is having trouble with the %20 code? There's also a %27 in the URL for Russo's file, and I just read that this symbol can cause an URL to be unreadable by certain browsers.
joetucciarone wrote: 07 Sep 2021, 12:50
Hi Angela - Maybe this will explain why you're having trouble. The link to Biagio Russo's pdf file contains the following piece of code in its URL:
Maybe your Firefox browser is having trouble with the %20 code? There's also a %27 in the URL for Russo's file, and I just read that this symbol can cause an URL to be unreadable by certain browsers.
Thanks Joe. I'm using my tablet at the moment and am able to open the pdf using chrome and also explorer. One of my son's is a programmer so I'll get him to explain and sort it out for me when he visits. I must have originally downloaded the pdf when I still had chrome on it so I'll see if I can restore it. Thanks again.
AngelaGrace56 wrote: 07 Sep 2021, 01:40
Also, looking at the following links, I have taken three samples of Church Death Records, which appear in the 1858 Processetti from Saponara di Grumento. I had never noticed this before, but, what I am now understanding, is, that there was a separate church death register set up for those who lost their lives in the 16 December 1857 earthquake. I had definitely noticed the word terremoto before but not the word register. Is this what you are also understanding from the wording in these death records. These are just three records but I do have more from 1858 processetti with the same wording.
Ciao Angela.
Sono d'accordo con te.
Nei documenti si dice:
"Si certifica da me Arciprete Curato dell'Insigne Collegiata Chiesa di questo comune di Saponara di aver rilevato dal registro de' morti col tremuoto de' sedici dicembre 1857 che da me si conserva ...".
Quindi esisteva un registro particolare della Parrocchia per i morti di quel terremoto. Bisognerebbe sapere se esiste ancora e dove è finito.
Qui gli indirizzi dell'Archivio diocesano e del parroco
Arcidiocesi di Potenza-Muro Lucano-Marsico Nuovo. Archivio storico di Potenza
Largo Duomo 5 - 85100, Potenza (Potenza)
S. ANTONINO MARTIRE
Via Chiesa Madre , 85050 Grumento Nova
Telefono: 0975/65588
Amministratore Parrocchiale: Sacerdote John Thomas Sojan
email: antoninomartire@libero.it
Emilio Lussu: “Che ne sarebbe della civiltà del mondo, se l’ingiusta violenza si potesse sempre imporre senza resistenza?” Slava Ukraine! תחי ישראל
AngelaGrace56 wrote: 07 Sep 2021, 01:40
Also, looking at the following links, I have taken three samples of Church Death Records, which appear in the 1858 Processetti from Saponara di Grumento. I had never noticed this before, but, what I am now understanding, is, that there was a separate church death register set up for those who lost their lives in the 16 December 1857 earthquake. I had definitely noticed the word terremoto before but not the word register. Is this what you are also understanding from the wording in these death records. These are just three records but I do have more from 1858 processetti with the same wording.
Ciao Angela.
Sono d'accordo con te.
Nei documenti si dice:
"Si certifica da me Arciprete Curato dell'Insigne Collegiata Chiesa di questo comune di Saponara di aver rilevato dal registro de' morti col tremuoto de' sedici dicembre 1857 che da me si conserva ...".
Quindi esisteva un registro particolare della Parrocchia per i morti di quel terremoto. Bisognerebbe sapere se esiste ancora e dove è finito.
Qui gli indirizzi dell'Archivio diocesano e del parroco
Arcidiocesi di Potenza-Muro Lucano-Marsico Nuovo. Archivio storico di Potenza
Largo Duomo 5 - 85100, Potenza (Potenza)
S. ANTONINO MARTIRE
Via Chiesa Madre , 85050 Grumento Nova
Telefono: 0975/65588
Amministratore Parrocchiale: Sacerdote John Thomas Sojan
email: antoninomartire@libero.it
Ciao G
Thanks so much for all your help and interest. I appreciate all the extra links here, and for supplying the addresses. Thanks also for confirming that I was interpreting correctly and that there was a separate register kept for those who died in the 1857 earthquake in Saponara . I agree, it would be good to know whether the register still exists, and where it is now kept.
My understanding, from what I've read, is that S. Antonino Martire, as we see it today, is a rebuild. The original was badly damaged in the earthquake. So, my thinking is that maybe it would be better to email the archdiocese. I would really appreciate it if you could write to them. (I think that If I write to them I'll just confuse them.) Let me know if that works for you. Thank you!!!!
Joe's link works for me (MacBook Air - Safari). That said, my goodness, the work/research done here never ceases to amaze me...
Ciao, Angela-
You may recall my significant other has a connection to Saponara di Grumento (her maternal grandfather - Giorgio Giuseppe Rago). You've helped me here or there along the way in the past with my research (thanks again). I'm not aware of any of her family being affected by this earthquake you refer to, but that's out of my almost complete ignorance on the subject, nothing more.
So... I suppose that's my way of saying I'd be interested in any of your/the Board's findings. I haven't researched Carol's lines in several years. I more or less had "reached my limit" and then had moved on to other endeavors. I do think it's more than a bit ironic that, in finding out that I had an Italian grandfather in 2019, that he had family from Saponara (but in Messina, Sicily). Crazy coincidence, if in (town) name only...
I have a busy weekend ahead, but will try to track the progress, i.e., as best I can and as time permits (I can handle the basics of most vital records, but otherwise don't read much Italian). Truth be told, most of this is overwhelming to me.
Thanks so much for all your help and interest. I appreciate all the extra links here, and for supplying the addresses. Thanks also for confirming that I was interpreting correctly and that there was a separate register kept for those who died in the 1857 earthquake in Saponara . I agree, it would be good to know whether the register still exists, and where it is now kept.
My understanding, from what I've read, is that S. Antonino Martire, as we see it today, is a rebuild. The original was badly damaged in the earthquake. So, my thinking is that maybe it would be better to email the archdiocese. I would really appreciate it if you could write to them. (I think that If I write to them I'll just confuse them.) Let me know if that works for you. Thank you!!!!
Nel primo libro, a pag. 158, inizia l'"Elenco delle scritture esistenti nell’archivio parrocchiale". Puoi vedere (pag. 159) che, fra i Libri dei morti (Libri mortuorum), si parla 6) Liber mortuorum (1856-1897). Non si dice che esista un libro particolare per le vittime del terremoto. Forse è un'appendice al Libro per gli anni 1857 o 1858. Comunque sembra che l'Archivio della Collegiata sia conservato presso la Parrocchia di S. Antonino.
Nel secondo libro, a pag. 148, ci sono delle foto che riguardano elenchi dei morti per il terremoto. Il secondo documento dovrebbe essere conservato presso il Comune.
Ti ho mandato un PM.
Attachments
Emilio Lussu: “Che ne sarebbe della civiltà del mondo, se l’ingiusta violenza si potesse sempre imporre senza resistenza?” Slava Ukraine! תחי ישראל
mjclayton1 wrote: 10 Sep 2021, 08:14
Joe's link works for me (MacBook Air - Safari). That said, my goodness, the work/research done here never ceases to amaze me...
Ciao, Angela-
You may recall my significant other has a connection to Saponara di Grumento (her maternal grandfather - Giorgio Giuseppe Rago). You've helped me here or there along the way in the past with my research (thanks again). I'm not aware of any of her family being affected by this earthquake you refer to, but that's out of my almost complete ignorance on the subject, nothing more.
So... I suppose that's my way of saying I'd be interested in any of your/the Board's findings. I haven't researched Carol's lines in several years. I more or less had "reached my limit" and then had moved on to other endeavors. I do think it's more than a bit ironic that, in finding out that I had an Italian grandfather in 2019, that he had family from Saponara (but in Messina, Sicily). Crazy coincidence, if in (town) name only...
I have a busy weekend ahead, but will try to track the progress, i.e., as best I can and as time permits (I can handle the basics of most vital records, but otherwise don't read much Italian). Truth be told, most of this is overwhelming to me.
Good luck in your research/quest.
Mark
Hi Mark
Thanks for your post here and for your kind thoughts and wishes. Yes, I clearly remember that you research Saponara di Grumento. You may be interested to look at the links that mmogno has just posted here. They are a goldmine of information. I’m still working through them and finding them really informative and have even found verification of an incident that happened to one of my great grandfathers. (I still can't believe it is there. So random!!! I've been looking for verification of the event off and on since 2010.)
You may be interested - on one of the links (Grumento Sconosciuta - the second link) , on page 151 it has a list of the first 28 emigrants from Saponara after 1861. I notice that there is a Raffaele Rago, born 13 May 1834, listed there. He may or may not be in your wife’s family history. There are other names on the list that you may recognise. I hope you have time to take a look through the three pdfs.
Nel primo libro, a pag. 158, inizia l'"Elenco delle scritture esistenti nell’archivio parrocchiale". Puoi vedere (pag. 159) che, fra i Libri dei morti (Libri mortuorum), si parla 6) Liber mortuorum (1856-1897). Non si dice che esista un libro particolare per le vittime del terremoto. Forse è un'appendice al Libro per gli anni 1857 o 1858. Comunque sembra che l'Archivio della Collegiata sia conservato presso la Parrocchia di S. Antonino.
Nel secondo libro, a pag. 148, ci sono delle foto che riguardano elenchi dei morti per il terremoto. Il secondo documento dovrebbe essere conservato presso il Comune.
The legal requirements for recognition of Italian citizenship claims made by persons born abroad, but whose births were never registered with an Italian consular agency, vary considerably according to particular circumstances, and also depend upon existing treaties between the Italian Republic and v...
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