Help with Translation for Unknown Father

[bmorocco]

Greetings,

I believe this is a GGF on my paternal side. My cousin has done the legwork to believe that GIROLAMO CARINE, as he was known in US, was foundling or at least of "hidden" paternity.
I think this record confirms that. The given name is Girolamo IGNOTO.

Hoping to get help confirming this?

Thanks in advance,

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... GA?lang=en

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi

Your link doesn't take us to the record you are referring to, and there is no index for me to search. Can you please give us the page number, and the record number of the record that you would like us to to look at. Thank you.

Angela

[bmorocco]

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... GA?lang=enSO sorry,

It must've been in my web history... Here's a try at the link again.
The path is
Archivio di Stato di Palermo > Stato civile della restaurazione > Solanto(oggi Santa Flavia) > 1852 - Page 58 of 162. - PAGE 57 in the physical book.
16th March

Registry: 1852
Born

Stato civile della restaurazione > Solanto (oggi Santa Flavia)

Stored by: Archivio di Stato di Palermo

City/Location: Santa Flavia

Archival signature: 30

[AngelaGrace56]

Birth No 57: Girolamo ignoto

Birth was registered in Solanta 16 March 1852, by the midwife

It says that she presented a male baby who was born to Vincenza Cacici?, 23 yo, living in Porticello?, and from father unknown (ignoto padre). The baby was born (11 March 1857?) at 8 am in own home and given the name Girolamo.

Baptism recorded right column: Sacrament of Baptism was administered to Girolamo ignoto on 16 March 1852, church of Santa Maria.

The last page just gives the names of those who witnessed the birth registration and presentation of the baby.
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... GA?lang=en


The script is quite challenging but I’ve done my best. The baby wasn’t a foundling. He was born to a young woman, and his father was unknown. It’s interesting that he was not given his mother’s surname, so maybe she didn’t keep him? What you could do is check the records to see whether the mother married.


Edit to Add: I've just reread what you wrote and I think the mother's name is actually Vincenza Carini not Cacici. That would make better sense. Another set of eyes would help. Not sure why he wasn't given her name at birth though????

Angela

[liviomoreno]

Birth No 57: Girolamo ignoto

Birth was registered in Solanta 16 March 1852, by the midwife

It says that she presented a male baby who was born to Vincenza Carini?, 23 yo, living in Porticello?, and from father unknown (ignoto padre). The baby was born (11 March 1857?) at 8 am in own home and given the name Girolamo.

Baptism recorded right column: Sacrament of Baptism was administered to Girolamo ignoto on 16 March 1852, church of Santa Maria.

The last page just gives the names of those who witnessed the birth registration and presentation of the baby.
https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... GA?lang=en


The script is quite challenging but I’ve done my best. The baby wasn’t a foundling. He was born to a young woman, and his father was unknown. It’s interesting that he was not given his mother’s surname, so maybe she didn’t keep him? What you could do is check the records to see whether the mother married.


Edit to Add: I've just reread what you wrote and I think the mother's name is actually Vincenza Carini not Cacici. That would make better sense. Another set of eyes would help. Not sure why he wasn't given her name at birth though????

Angela

[bmorocco]

Thank you very much... This is what I have thought. He did eventually go by the name of the mother, and my cousin has the name of the Father as one Francesco Bellante, previously or currently still married...

And I believe he then married Vincenza, later.

Can you make a guess on the Midwife name? Dorotea something... -ici? maybe I should just brows the records for another time her name was written. That often helps me with some capital letters!

[AngelaGrace56]

Birth No 57: Girolamo ignoto

Birth was registered in Solanta 16 March 1852, by the midwife

It says that she presented a male baby who was born to Vincenza Carini?, 23 yo, living in Porticello?, and from father unknown (ignoto padre). The baby was born (11 March 1857?) at 8 am in own home and given the name Girolamo..........



Angela

Thanks for the backup Livio. Happy New Year!

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Thank you very much... This is what I have thought. He did eventually go by the name of the mother, and my cousin has the name of the Father as one Francesco Bellante, previously or currently still married...

And I believe he then married Vincenza, later.

Can you make a guess on the Midwife name? Dorotea something... -ici? maybe I should just brows the records for another time her name was written. That often helps me with some capital letters!

That is interesting. Do you have the marriage records. If you do can I see them.

Re the midwife I am reading Dorotea Ballistreri

Angela

[bmorocco]

Angela,

I am checking with my cousin, and asking her to join here, as she has done so much more inter-family work. I am trying to fill in with paperwork on atenati.

I MAY be wrong that he eventually Married Vincenza. That's just the way it is laid out on our Ancestry tree: Like so

Francesco Bellante b 1793 , Aspra Sicily - husband of ANNA SARDINA b. 1797, Aspera, Palermo...
- and then his man is listed as father of Girolamo Carini - My 2nd GGF.

But as to the documentation for this... I have yet to see it.


Girolamo married Maria Roccopalumbo - b 1855. They both eventually emigrated to US.

But her name might be recorded as ASCIUTTO... The tree I am going by has this MARIA asgrand-daughter of a lady of the COURT (Two Sicilies).

This is where it gets tangled and is why I am trying to find what I can in the scanned records.


Thank you again!

[bmorocco]

I apologize for the confusing postings. I'm trying to add documentary evidence to what I have been told...
Francesco Bellanti is father of this Girolamo, but was married to someone else.
When his 1st wife Scardina dies, 1867, he then married this V Carini... That's the story and chart I have been given.


I found the Same child's record under the NATI, ALLEGATI documents. Still with "Ignoto" taking place of surname.

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... e4?lang=en
Archivio di Stato di Palermo > Stato civile della restaurazione > Solanto(oggi Santa Flavia) > 1852
57 of 160

These Allegati - I'm not too clear on. I have not looked in these records before. Id like to know if there are any clues here?

Thank you and happy new year!

[AngelaGrace56]

I apologize for the confusing postings. I'm trying to add documentary evidence to what I have been told...
Francesco Bellanti is father of this Girolamo, but was married to someone else.
When his 1st wife Scardina dies, 1867, he then married this V Carini... That's the story and chart I have been given.

So there weren't sources included for this information?

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

.......I found the Same child's record under the NATI, ALLEGATI documents. Still with "Ignoto" taking place of surname.

https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... e4?lang=en
Archivio di Stato di Palermo > Stato civile della restaurazione > Solanto(oggi Santa Flavia) > 1852
57 of 160

These Allegati - I'm not too clear on. I have not looked in these records before. Id like to know if there are any clues here?

Thank you and happy new year!

No, unfortunately there are no added clues. It’s basically Girolamo’s baptism certificate with the same details I’ve already given you. They are often included with the allegati documents but not always. Allegati are basically attachments or supplementary records.

With regard to “Birth Allegati” generally what you might find amongst them would be the “original” document that was sent in, from say a hospital, if the baby was born there, or another country, etc. The details from the document/letter advising of the birth were transcribed into the supplementary register (e.g. Part II) of the year that the document/letter was received, and then the letter/document would be filed with the “birth allegati” for the year it was received.

Re Francesco Bellanti marrying Vincenza Carini? If they did in fact marry, my thinking is that Francesco Bellanti surely would’ve legitimised Girolamo? (If Girolamo kept his mother's surname throughout life then I suspect he wasn't) It would be good to locate the marriage record which would have this information on it. You could also look for Vincenza’s birth record ( c.1823) which just might have a marriage annotation included on it. Her death record would also include a husband’s name on it.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Following on from my previous two posts, in case you haven't seen them.

Late yesterday I decided to check for Vincenza Carini’s birth record. I searched the indexes 1820-1830 and only found one Vincenza Carini, who was born in 1830. (1822 birth records are missing, so your Vincenza, who I know was born circa 1823, may have been born in 1822, or, your Vincenza may have been younger than what was recorded on Girolamo’s birth record?)

I also searched for Vincenza’s death record, possibile marriage record, and also Francesco Bellanti’s death record, and other records relating to him. (Francesco Bellanti/Bellante was a very popular name in the town.) Most if not all of the death records I checked for Francesco Bellanti related to children. Unfortunately there are limited records that have been filmed and digitised for the town, and basically the records that are needed are possibly the years missing. I searched both Family Search and Antenati site.

Interesting:
The Vincenza Carini that was born in 1830 in Porticello, married on 2 June 1855 with a Giuseppe Giangrasso, in Solanto and then, “according to a tree” on family search, Giuseppe Giangrasso died, (he died some time time before 1878) and she married with ……….. Francesco Bellante! Unfortunately, there are no sources included for any death record for Giuseppe Giangrasso or this Vincenza Carini’s marriage record to Francesco Billante, who died in 1882 (no source given).

So were there two Vincenza Carini’s who both happened to marry a Francesco Bellanti, or are people just importing unsourced info from other people’s trees assuming that the information is correct.

1830 Birth Vincenza Carini Page 98: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 94/572XRWA


1855 Marriage Vincenza Carini and Giangrasso Page 24: https://www.antenati.san.beniculturali. ... 20/0A13jgz

Edit to Add: I've just realised that I totally miscalculated Vincenza's birth year. (I can't believe I did thatt!) She was born circa 1829 not 1823, so I believe that your Vincenza Carini who birthed Girolamo and the Vincenza Carini who was born in 1830 and married Giuseppe Giangrasso are one and the same people.

Angela

[bmorocco]

Angela,

Thank you for your thorough research, and for following my scattered posts. While I was posting I had also found the 1830 Birth of Vincenza which I believe is correct. I have not done much searching for marriage records, but I appreciate that one very much!

Yes, what you have here is what I have been told and shown on my Cousin's work. It's probably her tree you found. Giangrasso is another name in her printed out charts.

The Vincenza Carini that was born in 1830 in Porticello, married on 2 June 1855 with a Giuseppe Giangrasso, in Solanto and then, “according to a tree” on family search, Giuseppe Giangrasso died, (he died some time time before 1878) and she married with ……….. Francesco Bellante! Unfortunately, there are no sources included for any death record for Giuseppe Giangrasso or this Vincenza Carini’s marriage record to Francesco Billante, who died in 1882 (no source given).

But, as you say - I do not see the Documentation that I am used to finding in my separate pursuit of citizenship (under my mother side).
SO I am going to go on. As you said, there are some key years missing, but I will start with these and see what I can find (under VINCENZA on cousin's Ancestry, with no documents):

Birth of daughter Angela Giangrasso(1861–)
9 Jun 1861 • Italy

Birth of son Francesco Giangrasso(1869–1898)
7 Apr 1869 • Porticello, Palermo, Sicilia, Italy

Death of husband Giuseppe Francesco Pietro Giangrasso(1818–1878)
1878 • Porticello, Palermo, Sicilia, Italy

Death of husband Francesco Bellanti(1793–1882)
1882 • Aspra, Palermo, Sicily

I am also told VINCENZA had 2 daughters and a son, Francesco(?) with Bellanti after this 2nd marriage.

I will post again at end of week with what I can find.

Very deep thanks,

[AngelaGrace56]

So happy I had the time to help. I feel like I'm somewhat invested now so let us know if you need any help with any translations. I'll leave you to find those other records, as I know how satisfying it can be, but do let us know if you have any issues.

Kind regards.
Angela