Is this an unusual circumstance?

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onslo234
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Is this an unusual circumstance?

Post by onslo234 »

I just had my grandfather's birth certificate translated. It seems odd. He was born on March 8, 1909 but it seems that the birth wasn't recorded until July of that year and was done so by the grandfather. I am also confused by the last section, which references criminal court?

Additionally, I located my grandfather in the Liste Di Leva files but I didn't think he would be there as he wasn't technically born an Italian citizen (citizenship did not pass through mother until 1948). Was it a common practice at the time to include male children born to foreign fathers in the Liste Di Leva?

In the year 1909, on the twenty-second day of the month of July, at ten hours and thirty minutes ante meridiem, in the Municipal Offices.

Before me, [NON-LEGIBLE] Luigi [NON-LEGIBLE], Deputy Secretary by authority delegated the Mayo on April 11, 1904, approved,
Registrar of the Civil Registry of the Municipality of Milano, appeared Lucilio Malaspina, 51, years old, employed, domiciled in Milano, who declared to me that at eleven hours ante meridiem, in the eighth day of this past March, at the house located at Via Uberti, number 1, Ada Malaspina, a housewife, married to Giorgio Tchircoss, Deputy Consul General of Russia domiciled in Thessaloniki, gave birth to a male child who he did not present to me, and who is named Igory.

The witnesses to the statement and to this certificate Emilio Loupugnoni, 50 years old, a doorman, and Giovanni Colombo, 54 years old, a doorman, both residing in this Municipality.

The declarant informs me that it was not possible for the parents to present [NON-LEGIBLE] the head of the family, and because Malaspina gave birth at her home [NON-LEGIBLE], so he announces the birth in place of the father who is absent from the municipality. To make the registration of this birth, he provides an authenticated copy of the sentence handed down on the eighth day of the current month by the local Criminal [NON-LEGIBLE] Court, issued on the following day by the Registrar, which has ordered me to receive [NON-LEGIBLE] this statement. Said copy was filed in the volume of attachments for this registration. [NON-LEGIBLE]
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Italysearcher
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Re: Is this an unusual circumstance?

Post by Italysearcher »

This is a 'late' birth registration. If the birth was not registered within 10 days they had to go to court to do the registration.
As far as citizenship goes:
if you or your ancestors were born to a mother of Italian origin before January 1, 1948, the process may not be so straightforward. Under the 1912 Citizenship law, only men were able to transfer their Italian lineage to children, while women could hold but not pass citizenship to their descendants.

The principles of gender equality were laid down only on January 1, 1948 when the Italian Constitution entered into force. Unfortunately, the new legislation was not retroactive and so children born to an Italian mother before 1948 are not automatically Italian.

If you think this is discriminating between women and men, don’t worry, the Italian Supreme Court agrees with you. In 2009, it established that it is unconstitutional to discriminate between women and men even in citizenship matters (judgment no. 4466/2009). All descendants born anytime from an Italian parent, father or mother, are Italian citizens by birth right.

Unfortunately, this judgement did not have any consequences on the Consular behaviour and if you fall into the “1948 cases” and submit a request of recognition of Italian citizenship Jure Sanguinis, Consulates will strictly apply the Italian nationality law and will reject your application. Consequently, you can only proceed through a legal proceeding at the Italian Court.
As for the Lista di Leva:
Residents of Italy including non citizens are included in the lista di leva from age 17.
Ann Tatangelo
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onslo234
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Re: Is this an unusual circumstance?

Post by onslo234 »

Italysearcher wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 14:29 This is a 'late' birth registration. If the birth was not registered within 10 days they had to go to court to do the registration.
As far as citizenship goes:
if you or your ancestors were born to a mother of Italian origin before January 1, 1948, the process may not be so straightforward. Under the 1912 Citizenship law, only men were able to transfer their Italian lineage to children, while women could hold but not pass citizenship to their descendants.

The principles of gender equality were laid down only on January 1, 1948 when the Italian Constitution entered into force. Unfortunately, the new legislation was not retroactive and so children born to an Italian mother before 1948 are not automatically Italian.

If you think this is discriminating between women and men, don’t worry, the Italian Supreme Court agrees with you. In 2009, it established that it is unconstitutional to discriminate between women and men even in citizenship matters (judgment no. 4466/2009). All descendants born anytime from an Italian parent, father or mother, are Italian citizens by birth right.

Unfortunately, this judgement did not have any consequences on the Consular behaviour and if you fall into the “1948 cases” and submit a request of recognition of Italian citizenship Jure Sanguinis, Consulates will strictly apply the Italian nationality law and will reject your application. Consequently, you can only proceed through a legal proceeding at the Italian Court.
As for the Lista di Leva:
Residents of Italy including non citizens are included in the lista di leva from age 17.
Interesting, thanks for the response. Is this “court” that you speak of the criminal court? That is what is confusing me about the document. Why were the criminal courts involved in this situation and not, say, the civil court?

Edit: nevermind, disregard. I think I understand now.
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PippoM
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Re: Is this an unusual circumstance?

Post by PippoM »

The translation is not literal. What confuses you, is that the original record says "Tribunale civile e penale" (a unified Court for civil and criminal cases), while the translator just mentions the "Criminal Court". Maybe he/she could not read the word "civile".
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