'storico' letter

[Italysearcher]

In Sora, where I live, there is a 1921 census with all the family information that was updated until 1930. Unfortunately there is no index, so a search requires you to look at each folder, and there are 5000 of them.
I created an index of Heads of Household as I receive regular inquiries for a search for living relatives but I know that the staff here will not do a page by page search. They simply do not have the time.
Trafford Cole's book is great, but you need to remember that each town does its own thing. He describes what many towns do, but it doesn't apply to all.

[warriorrabbit]

Wow, a phone call! Thank you, Luca!

They did do archive research already, though. They looked up all the dates of the children (I gave them the years, but it was just for their reference to make sure they got the right family) and sent me their birth acts. Which was very nice of them, but I had that already. Would that they had focused on Celestino instead.

I'm sure his death record would say where he was born and who his parents were...but 1909 is the last record I have for Celestino, when the last child was born. I have no idea when he died. I'm not sure he was alive when my grandfather came over in 1924, but I'm assuming he was dead already as my mother was told he died young. For sure he was dead by 1931 when my grandfather married my grandmother. I'm pretty sure Concetta Alosi was still alive then, because my grandfather was 'too ashamed' to tell his mother that my grandmother was a divorcee. That's the best I can do for death dates. Too bad the microfilms only go to 1909!

[warriorrabbit]

Italysearcher, what about...throwing money at them? Would that inspire them?

I can't help but think (and I've mentioned this to my mother several times) that if they just got organized like the NYC Municipal Archives, and put order forms online, and charged a set fee per search, etc., that they would totally make money from all of us yahoos looking for crap. And make it easier for themselves in the bargain. And be able to finance some local projects.

[elba]

Italysearcher, what about...throwing money at them? Would that inspire them?

I can't help but think (and I've mentioned this to my mother several times) that if they just got organized like the NYC Municipal Archives, and put order forms online, and charged a set fee per search, etc., that they would totally make money from all of us yahoos looking for crap. And make it easier for themselves in the bargain. And be able to finance some local projects.

Yeah - right....

But THAT'S a sensible idea. They 'don't do' sensible ideas over here!!!
From one who lives among this chaotic, beaurocratic, disorganised, system, believe me - pigs might fly!

[Lucap]

Wow, a phone call! Thank you, Luca!...

They say there is nothing about Celestino!!
However I asked for the "copie integrali" of the birth acts (They'll send me in the next days): i'm sure that (with the entire documents) i'll find out the age and the place of birth for Celestino.
I'll post a message when the docs will arrive.
Ciao
Luca

[warriorrabbit]

Wow, Luca, thank you very much!

Not even a death record? Well, I didn't ask them to look for that, as I didn't have anything to go on. Other than the fact that he must have died at some point. I'm sure they both died there, although the children all moved away to Rome, Florence, California, etc.

The "copie integrali" of the birth acts of the children? Is that different than what was microfilmed by the LDS? I do have those, and I can save you some time and tell you there's nothing there about where Celestino and Concetta came from.

Celestino and Concetta seem to have just materialized in Mazzarra around 1897 (first child). Mysterious.

Thanks for your efforts, Luca! Hopefully something will turn up. <fingers crossed> I appreciate your help.

[Lucap]

...The "copie integrali" of the birth acts of the children? Is that different than what was microfilmed by the LDS?

I don't Know. Hope they are different

Luca

[warriorrabbit]

Ok, well, just FYI, this is an example of what the LDS stuff (atti di nascita) looked like that I found:

Giuseppe Ferlazzo, 1899
http://www.describe.org/genstuff/ferlaz ... e_1899.jpg

Celestino's birth year seems to be different for each kid, but it's basically 1872-1874. Unfortunately they only ask where he's domiciled, not where he's from.

[Lucap]

.... Unfortunately they only ask where he's domiciled, not where he's from.

Big problem!!!
Did you look if at lds they have the "pubblicazioni di matrimonio" (marriage banns) for Celestino's sons (if you know the dates, obviously).

Luca

[warriorrabbit]

Unfortunately the LDS films only go to 1909.

That's also why I haven't found death certificates for Celestino or Concetta. I was lucky to get the last kid's birth act as it is -- Mariannina was born in 1909. Well, the last living child, at any rate. Only four made it to adulthood.

[Lucap]

The "copie integrali" arrived. No good news
But i noticed a marriage annotation for Ernesto (1923) and called again to Mazzarrà. The registrar took the marriage register and read that Celestino (son of Giuseppe) was still alive in 1923 and gave his consent to the weddings.
So i (kindly) asked the registrar to search for Celestino's death act (from 1923 forward) and she promised to do it.
Keep your finger crossed

Luca

[warriorrabbit]

Luca, thank you! A very important clue.

That was Ernesto's marriage to Margaret Livoti. We are not entirely sure about the story there, either. There was something about Ernesto and Margaret, some sort of hint of scandal. I think Margaret was really young? She was born here, but had been sent back to Italy for some reason (for school? for the summer?) and was living with relatives.

Ernesto was a playa like his father Celestino (who gave syphilis to his wife Concetta, which she ultimately died of). When Ernesto had left Margaret and the boys and was in Hollywood (he was a piano tuner to the stars, played tennis with B list stars like Bruce Cabot), he always had some floozy around. My grandfather the straight arrow greatly disapproved. Margaret later had the chance to help Ernesto with his expired citizenship mess, and she was all, "No." Ha! That's why he ended up in Taormina. He lost his citizenship, opened up a piano store, and fathered an illegitimate son we can't find.

Anyhow, we thought the scandal had something to do with illicit, underage romance (there was some story about Ernesto climbing through the window). Then I saw Celestino's 1900 manifest, and he was coming to stay with his brother-in-law Giuseppe Livoti (the chicken magnate, owned a chain of chicken shops in NYC). So we thought, ahhhh, maybe there was cousin intermarriage, perhaps that was the scandal! But then it turns out that a) we can't figure the relationship out because we're stuck on Celestino and Concetta and b) cousin intermarriage was not considered weird.

My grandfather came over in 1924. Don't know if Celestino was still alive then. Pretty sure he was dead by the time my grandparents married in 1931, because my grandfather was embarrassed to tell his mother he was marrying a divorcee -- he didn't mention being embarrassed to tell his father. But then he may just not have cared what he thought; he didn't like how his father treated his mother, all the cheating and stuff.

This is exciting. Can't wait to find out what they say!

[Lucap]

...I think Margaret was really young?
I think she was 16. I was listening while the registrar was reading the document and i think to remember 16, but not sure...

Ernesto was a playa
what's a playa?

My grandfather (Carmelo?) came over in 1924.

[warriorrabbit]

A playa is gangsta (rap) slang for philanderer, or ladies' man if you prefer. In other words, he slept around a lot.

Carmelo, my grandfather, was born here during the year they were here, so his coming over in 1924 was easy -- he had citizenship (and couldn't lose it like Ernesto by staying overseas too long).

[Lucap]

L.