Rome Hospital Birth? Where to look for a potentional mothers death record

[mmogno]

It is not at all unusual for the parents of Giuseppe Eppes to be listed as unknown on his birth certificate. In Italy, it is still legal for a mother to remain anonymous when she is admitted to hospital to give birth and abandon her child.

[mmogno]

https://www.persee.fr/doc/efr_0000-0000 ... 140_1_4486

Attraverso i tempi Il brefotrofio di Roma

[lyn1982]

Thank you for that information! Does this sound good? I had AI draft up an email to send to and I just need to fill my info at bottom. Since I don't live in Italy or have a pac address it will be sent to the archipai@cittametropolitanaroma.it. email


Alla Città Metropolitana Roma Capitale
U.E.S.S.M. - Servizio 2
"Promozione sviluppo socio-culturale - Terzo settore – Cerimoniale"
Archivio Storico ex I.P.A.I.
Viale Giorgio Ribotta 41/43
00144 Roma
Oggetto: Richiesta di accesso completo ai documenti relativi a Giuseppe Eppes, nato il 6 dicembre 1895
Spett.le Direzione,
Sono il/la bisnipote di Giuseppe Eppes, nato a Roma il 6 dicembre 1895 e accolto presso il Brefotrofio Provinciale di Roma. Scrivo per richiedere l'accesso completo a tutta la documentazione relativa al mio bisnonno, incluse le informazioni normalmente secretate dalla legge.
Motivazione della richiesta:
Chiedo rispettosamente la divulgazione completa dei documenti per le seguenti ragioni:
Decorso del tempo: Sono trascorsi 130 anni dalla nascita di Giuseppe Eppes. Tutte le persone coinvolte - mio bisnonno, i suoi genitori biologici, e chiunque altro menzionato nei documenti - sono decedute da molti decenni.
Diritto all'identità: La Costituzione italiana (Articolo 2) riconosce i diritti inviolabili della persona, incluso il diritto fondamentale di conoscere le proprie origini. La Convenzione ONU sui Diritti dell'Infanzia riconosce inoltre il diritto di ogni persona a conoscere i propri genitori.
Assenza di rischi per la privacy: Dopo 130 anni, non esiste più alcun rischio concreto per la privacy o la riservatezza delle persone coinvolte. Le norme sulla privacy furono create per proteggere persone viventi, non per nascondere la storia familiare oltre un secolo dopo i fatti.
Scopo genealogico, non commerciale: Cerco queste informazioni esclusivamente per ricostruire la storia della mia famiglia e comprendere le mie origini. Non ho alcuna intenzione di pubblicare, diffondere o utilizzare le informazioni in modo improprio.
Storia medica e genetica: La conoscenza delle origini biologiche può essere importante per motivi di salute e storia medica familiare.
Informazioni già in mio possesso:
Nome: Giuseppe Eppes
Data di nascita: 6 dicembre 1895
Luogo di nascita: Roma
Dichiarante: Pietro Vespasiani
L'atto di nascita indica che fu accolto presso il Brefotrofio di Roma
Atto di nascita disponibile su Portale Antenati: https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 17/LDdGDqn
Documenti richiesti:
Chiedo cortesemente l'accesso a tutti i documenti relativi a Giuseppe Eppes conservati nell'Archivio Storico, inclusi ma non limitati a:
Atti di ammissione al Brefotrofio
Qualsiasi informazione sulle circostanze dell'abbandono o della consegna
Eventuali note, oggetti o segni di riconoscimento lasciati con lui
Descrizioni fisiche o altre informazioni identificative
Registri di balie, affidi o adozioni
Qualsiasi documento che possa fornire indizi sull'identità dei genitori biologici
Corrispondenza o richieste successive riguardanti Giuseppe Eppes
Richiesta di deroga:
Comprendo che le norme sulla privacy sono importanti e necessarie. Tuttavia, chiedo rispettosamente che venga concessa una deroga in questo caso eccezionale, considerando l'età dei documenti e il fatto che tutte le persone coinvolte sono decedute da tempo.
Se le normative vigenti impediscono categoricamente la divulgazione di alcune informazioni, chiedo cortesemente di:
Specificare quali leggi specifiche si applicano ancora a documenti di 130 anni fa
Indicare se esiste un procedimento formale per richiedere la desecretazione
Fornire comunque il maggior numero possibile di informazioni non secretate
Sono disponibile a fornire qualsiasi documentazione aggiuntiva necessaria per facilitare questa ricerca.
Vi prego di scusare eventuali errori nella mia comunicazione in italiano, poiché l'italiano non è la mia lingua madre e sto utilizzando un servizio di traduzione per questo messaggio.
Ringrazio anticipatamente per la cortese attenzione e per qualsiasi assistenza possiate fornire in questa ricerca personale profondamente importante.
In attesa di un Vostro cortese riscontro, porgo distinti saluti.
[Il tuo nome]
[Il tuo indirizzo]
[La tua email]
[Il tuo numero di telefono]
[Data]

[lyn1982]

It is not at all unusual for the parents of Giuseppe Eppes to be listed as unknown on his birth certificate. In Italy, it is still legal for a mother to remain anonymous when she is admitted to hospital to give birth and abandon her child.

I don't think thats whats unusual - what's unusual is born in a hospital with a specific time mentioned. Usually aren't they just dropped there? I read hospital births in 1895 were very rare. To me it indicates difficult birth - possible death of mother.

[lyn1982]

Also, someone was obviously present to witness this birth, and I've seen other birth records where it says the mother wished to remain anonymous - why doesn't it say that here? It's almost like she really was unknown even by whomever witnessed the birth and like she didn't get to stick around to give her identity or state her wishes..... I mean I've seen unknown parents before but never with exact birth time where birth was obviously witnessed. It should state she wished to remain anonymous - unless she could not talk - dead, unconscious, etc.


Maybe I need to find other unknown parent births here and have people take a look to see how those are phrased - cause either Rome did things differently - or she really didn't get to say who she was.

[lyn1982]

I'm looking at other birth records in registry - and I can't read italian - but from what I can gather there are many born to unknown parents right in the hospital too - BUT it seems all the other ones do not have time recorded down to the exact minute. This indicates to me than that mother died during labor - I mean even a lot of the babies with known parents don't have the exact time recorded - so isn't this a logical conclusion. There has to be a death record of a woman born that exact time who died - even if she herself is listed as unknown. I just need to know how to find it as I posted before 1 series seems to be dec 1894 deaths another seems to only go up to nov.

If those other babies born at hospital don't have birth recorded down to the minute - and my ggf does - can't the only logical conclusion be something else would have also have had been recorded at that minute - like mothers death.

[darkerhorse]

"In 1892 the Hospital of San Rocco at the Port of Ripetta, intended for travailing women, was suppressed and all patients were transferred to San Giovanni Hospital."

I take the term "travailing" here to mean having difficult labor.

[lyn1982]

I don't know if I'm in the right area of Rome, but can someone look and tell me if any woman born dec 6 especially the Emma Ragroni one who appears to have died around the right hour (4-5pm) - died from child birth? https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 55/La699qb

[AngelaGrace56]

I don't know if I'm in the right area of Rome, but can someone look and tell me if any woman born dec 6 especially the Emma Ragroni one who appears to have died around the right hour (4-5pm) - died from child birth? https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 55/La699qb

Emma was only one years old
Domenica Rastelli was 88 yo

From what I've read, I believe that the mother of Giuseppe Eppes purposely chose the hospital San Giovanni Laterano to have her baby because it was a safe place for both herself and her baby. It was a place where she could safely give birth in “secret”, and then leave the hospital knowing that her baby would be sent to the Brefotrofio. Her name would not have been registered when she arrived at the hospital so there wouldn’t be any info about her. I personally don’t think she was there because she was ill or at risk of dying. I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.

Best to you with this. It's not easy and I know you have been searching for a long time.

Angela

[lyn1982]

I don't know if I'm in the right area of Rome, but can someone look and tell me if any woman born dec 6 especially the Emma Ragroni one who appears to have died around the right hour (4-5pm) - died from child birth? https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 55/La699qb

Emma was only one years old
Domenica Rastelli was 88 yo

From what I've read, I believe that the mother of Giuseppe Eppes purposely chose the hospital San Giovanni Laterano to have her baby because it was a safe place for both herself and her baby. It was a place where she could safely give birth in “secret”, and then leave the hospital knowing that her baby would be sent to the Brefotrofio. Her name would not have been registered when she arrived at the hospital so there wouldn’t be any info about her. I personally don’t think she was there because she was ill or at risk of dying. I was reading something recently about the hospital and I understand that the hospital was divided into a male area and a woman’s area, but not only that, there was also a specific area which was given a name starting with “C” which means “hidden” which is where women who wanted to keep their pregnancy private were accommodated. Anyways, I’ll leave that with you. I’ve completely lost the link to what I was reading but if I find it I’ll post the info.

Best to you with this. It's not easy and I know you have been searching for a long time.

Angela

Thanks for the info.

How do I find if he was born in that specific area, does birth record tell? I don't understand why his record has exact birth time when the other babies born with unknown parents at same hospital don't have exact time, just hour.

If she did die, would there be a death record under her real name, or under name of unknown? And are those records the right date and place? I want to look for december 6th around 4:50. But one AI claimed that was Dec 6 and another Ai just claimed those records were December 10th, so now Idk if right date.

[lyn1982]

I think the deaths start here for Dec 6? I'm not sure its hard to make out. https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 55/wEJBBrd Theres a Dante Cecila - I assume male, a Settinia? with two surnames, an Augusta Projetti and a Gertrude Nardi. I'm not sure how to find where cause of death or age is listed - I don't suppose you can take a look and tell if any died in right time and place and from child birth?

[AngelaGrace56]

I think the deaths start here for Dec 6? I'm not sure its hard to make out. https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 55/wEJBBrd Theres a Dante Cecila - I assume male, a Settinia? with two surnames, an Augusthttps://www.italiangenealogy.com/a Projetti and a Gertrude Nardi. I'm not sure how to find where cause of death or age is listed - I don't suppose you can take a look and tell if any died in right time and place and from child birth?

Just quick answers here as it is getting late.

Cecilia Dantea three year old girl
Settima an 84 year old woman
Augusta a 46 yo old woman
Gertrude 75 yo woman

To find the age of the deceased scroll down and find the deceased’s name and their age will follow. You are basically looking at the last four lines in this set of records.

Generally, Death Records do not contain the reason of death. If they do, it’s an added bonus. I've probably researched four towns where cause of death was given, and it was only for a time period if I remember correctly. As more towns are being digitised we may see it more often.

Remember: The date of death will be in the body of the record.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

How do I find if he was born in that specific area, does birth record tell? I don't understand why his record has exact birth time when the other babies born with unknown parents at same hospital don't have exact time, just hour.

The birth record generally always states the place of birth which is usually the home of the parents, but with these records - the few that I have viewed - have all taken place at said hospital.

Re the time of birth, if you look at No's 852, 856, 860 these births include the hour and minutes. Generally when only the hour is given, it is because the baby was born on the hour or very close to it. I wouldn't read too much into this.

Angela

[lyn1982]

Thanks for the info. This is very disappointing! I mean I know I shouldn't hope she had died after giving birth but man it would make my life so much easier lol.

I guess I'm back to researching the Martorana/Giordano couple who settled in Rome - I know I dna match to Martorana families from Porto Empedocile and thats where they came from originally, and I have over 50 dna matches with surname Giordano so maybe that relates too - but it makes zero sense since this couple didn't marry until 1908. Though her 2 years older sister married him before her and died, she had birth year of 1887 I believe. I'll have to go back and find the allegati. But I don't think she be old enough to have a kid born in 1895. So it really does not make sense that my strongest DNA tie to Rome is a couple whose obviously too young to be his parents. Unless there was a 3rd sister and he was just going through the whole family LMAO. I don't know what to think. His birth record just notates the 2 marriages.

[darkerhorse]

I like AngelaGrace56's scenario.