WORST NEWS POSSIBLE!

[johnnyonthespot]

Still his name on the Lista di Leva does not mean he was born in Italy or that his father was Italian. The birth/baptism record is the only thing that will prove this.

Well, since compulsory (or even any?) military service could have been required only for Italian citizens, don't you think that his presence on the Lista di Leva would be a strong indication that he was indeed an Italian citizen?

Also, the Lista di Leva clearly shows the exact place of birth: Comune, Mandamente, and Circondario.

Or am I missing something obvious?

[sceaminmonkey]

Carmine I sent the email days ago I don't expect to hear back for weeks but to be safe do you think it's a good idea to mail it to them. I know it's easy to lose track of emails.


Thanks,
Dave

[jennabet]

Carmine, yes probably so. But some Italians may have left to avoid mandatory service. The immigrant I'm researching now left for America three weeks after his 18th birthday to join his father who was already here. In many cases, the oldest son was left in Italy to care for his mother and younger siblings with the plan that he immigrate before the military could get him. Monkey says his GGF left at age 17 -- too young to be listed on the mandatory register.

[jennabet]

Furthermore, I doubt they would have been allowed to depart if they were on the mandatory list and had not yet served. My own grand-father was 14 when he arrived -- to young to be on the mandatory list. He arrived with his father, who at age 33 had already served his two years mandatory.

[johnnyonthespot]

Monkey says his GGF left at age 17 -- too young to be listed on the mandatory register.

Right, but my guy died at age 1 year and 5 months, yet he was listed in the mandatory register. See where I am going with this?

Earlier in the thread, we discussed the hope that screaminmonkey's ancestor might be listed in the register with the notation that he was a deserter. Although not the usual route, in my mind this would go a long way towards establishing his date of birth, place of birth, parent's names, and citizenship (since you wouldn't be a deserter if you weren't considered a citizen).

[sceaminmonkey]

is registering someone as a deserter standard practice for the communes of the time? should I send a written letter requesting the information?


thanks,
Dave

[jennabet]

.......Right, but my guy died at age 1 year and 5 months, yet he was listed in the mandatory register. See where I am going with this?.......

Yes, I do see where you're going. But no birth certificate, no baptisimal certificate, and if not on the mandatory register this tells me he was not born in Italy. Or if he was born in Italy, the mother never registered the birth -- and there could be a number of reasons for that, most of which I can't get into here.

[johnnyonthespot]

is registering someone as a deserter standard practice for the communes of the time? should I send a written letter requesting the information?


thanks,
Dave

My personal experience and that of others here is that state archives (Archivio di Stato di .....) are very good at responding to emailed requests and usually in a timely manner - two or three weeks. I would try to relax a bit and see if the archive comes through for you.

And, if they do come through with a Lista di Leva entry, then granted it is not a perfect solution, but it does give you a document on which to base the larger argument.

[sceaminmonkey]

yeah I'm trying to relax just so close, then these road bumps. thanks for the encouragement.

--Dave

[jennabet]

Carmine, since your guy died at age 1 year 5 months but was listed on the mandatory register, it must have been a requirement for all males to be registered at birth or shortly thereafter. At what age, then, would you think same males would be listed as "deserters" if they happened to leave the country? Personally, I think the "Deserter" angle is a bit of a stretch but I guess it's always worth a try.

[ricbru]

In the lista di leva there is written the place of birth
Riccardo

Still his name on the Lista di Leva does not mean he was born in Italy or that his father was Italian. The birth/baptism record is the only thing that will prove this.

[jennabet]

Indeed, place of birth would narrow it down, considering Napoli is a big city and province.

[johnnyonthespot]

Carmine, since your guy died at age 1 year 5 months but was listed on the mandatory register, it must have been a requirement for all males to be registered at birth or shortly thereafter. At what age, then, would you think same males would be listed as "deserters" if they happened to leave the country? Personally, I think the "Deserter" angle is a bit of a stretch but I guess it's always worth a try.

Males were expected to report for military conscription upon reaching the age of 19; I don't know how much time was allowed for them to show up late, but I expect it wasn't very long.

In a related thread ( http://italiangenealogy.tardio.com/Foru ... art=0.html ), an uncle of mine who had come to the US returned to Italy (for whatever reason, I do not know) and was conscripted. Because he reported four years late, he was punished by adding an additional year to the normal two years service time. In fact, I believe he ended up serving until the end of WWI.

[ricbru]

All the italian young men born between 1876 and 1899, if healthy enough for military service, and available on the italian soil, ended up to battle on WW1
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

In fact, I believe he ended up serving until the end of WWI.

[sceaminmonkey]

Oops I by accident just sent it as a quick reply to someone. But I just wanted to give an update. So far no word from napoli on my GGF military record and I have hired Riccardo to track down records. He has been working very Hard! so far the people on this forum have been more informative and more helpful than the other two researchers I hired. also I just got my GGM death certificate and it is full of error's it also turns out that she was born two years earlier than she used on her american documents on top of being Verdesca and not verdeschi for her last name.


Still trying to remain Hopeful!