Ethnicity vs. skin tone

[MarcuccioV]

Do you know which side of your father's family your Italian paternal matches are on?

Does anyone on his side, except his bothers and their children, have olive skin?

I would have to go through the list again (no time to do that at present), but IIRC it was his maternal side, which is the side Frank is on (he was my grandmother's maternal grandfather).

It is something I want to investigate further when I have more time to do it properly.

I don't have very many family photos that go beyond my GP's. The skin tones vary somewhat, but most pics are B&W so it can be hard to tell.

I only know for certain the people I knew personally. And THEY were olive without a doubt.

My one paternal uncle (youngest of the three olive brothers) was married to a woman who emigrated straight from Cassino. He was darker than she was.

And in several pics my dad is darker than my mother. At no time was he lighter than her.

[darkerhorse]

So, the DNA results don't directly report which ancestry line the matches are on other than paternal vs maternal?

[MarcuccioV]

So, the DNA results don't directly report which ancestry line the matches are on other than paternal vs maternal?

They don't even report that. Just percentages of the whole. If you are lucky enough to have living parents, it's recommended you have one or both tested to make comparisons and check matches. Unfortunately my parents have been gone for decades so I am unable to do that. It's possible to have aunts/uncles tested also. Cousins may help too but remember they are conglomerates of other families.

You can use Ancestry's 'thru-lines' (which are based on user-created trees) to some extent to see what side a particular match is on -- if you are multi-ethnic (as we both are), you can get a pretty good feel that way, also.

Autosomal testing is limited in this respect. If you have no parents to test, the best you can get is a "chromosome paint report". It estimates which ethnicities are on which chromosomes. Since your chromosomes are pairs, it also estimates the ethnicities for each side of the pair, but doesn't indicate what is maternal or paternal.

Sometimes "X" matches can lead you to maternal relatives if that matrix tests for the X chromosome (of my 3500+ matches on FTDNA, NONE of them match my "X" -- at least at the 6cM threshold --nor my mtDNA haplogroup).

In my case (and likely in yours, too) you could tell based on the ethnicities found. In my case, half of my chromosomes (1 side of each pair) were of Italian ethnicity (1 had about 1/3 Anatolian) so I knew these were maternal. The surprise is that 2 of my paternal chromosomes (1/3 of one and all of another) are ALSO Italian.

Since there can be no crossover and you get 50% from each parent, that's why I'm certain my dad has Italian hiding SOMEWHERE (olive skin supporting but notwithstanding).

The chromosome report shows it, the matrices show more than 50% Italian, and relatives on the paternal side keep popping up with Italian ancestry (and then there's that pesky skin-tone thing). See now why I'm not relying solely on a (human created) paper trail..?

** Just as a bonus argument, if I only depended on documentation I would never have found my cousin Debbie **

[darkerhorse]

Obviously, it's best to use both the paper trail and DNA testing.

[MarcuccioV]

Obviously, it's best to use both the paper trail and DNA testing.

Which I'm trying to do. Unfortunately the paper trail isn't cooperating (LOL)...

[darkerhorse]

Maybe you should contact Skip Gates.

[MarcuccioV]

Maybe you should contact Skip Gates.

I'll leave that one alone...

[darkerhorse]

When a person who doesn't have olive skin tans in the sun, do their veins appear green or do they remain blue?

I have light-to-medium olive skin with greenish veins which appear even more greenish when I tan.

Do both olive skin and tanning produce greenish veins?

I'm assuming there's plenty of Italians who don't have olive skin but tan instead of burn, or, at least, don't burn if they are careful with sun exposure. Like an oven roast - burn if you cook quickly, but brown if you cook slowly.

[MarcuccioV]

When a person who doesn't have olive skin tans in the sun, do their veins appear green or do they remain blue?

I have light-to-medium olive skin with greenish veins which appear even more greenish when I tan.

Do both olive skin and tanning produce greenish veins?

I'm assuming there's plenty of Italians who don't have olive skin but tan instead of burn, or, at least, don't burn if they are careful with sun exposure. Like an oven roast - burn if you cook quickly, but brown if you cook slowly.

That's a good question. Since tanning is related to melanin, I'm not sure how it would affect vein color.

I know mine are green even where my skin is unexposed and untanned. Both my parents were the same. No one had the so-called "blue" or "purple" veinage.

None of us burned easily either. Often we would show a light burn which turned a nice olivey-bronze the following day. We rarely ever burned enough to peel unless it was an extreme burn, and even then the peeling was minimal.

And that applied to all 3 of us. No skin cancer issues, either. Not ever.

[darkerhorse]

I can burn and I've had skin cancers, but mine is only light-to-medium olive skin. Plus, mine is only on one side of the family. You have Italian on both sides.

By saying "olivey-bronze" it suggests to me that both olive skin and tanning are at play.

Again, mine is more ruddy suggesting some burning with the tanning, I assume.

I wonder if that's how American Indians became known as "redskins", a ruddy complexion resulting from darker olive skin and some burning with their tanning.

[darkerhorse]

How is complexion recorded on the WWII draft registrations for your father and his bothers?

My father (registered in June) and my grandfather (registered in April) are both recorded as "ruddy". I think it's more my grandmother's family who were olive-skinned. My grandfather was bruno (dark or brown), as are many Italians.

Do you consider Latinos, for example, Alexandria Ocasio-Lopez, as brown-skinned or olive-skinned?

[MarcuccioV]

How is complexion recorded on the WWII draft registrations for your father and his bothers?

My father (registered in June) and my grandfather (registered in April) are both recorded as "ruddy". I think it's more my grandmother's family who were olive-skinned. My grandfather was bruno (dark or brown), as are many Italians.

Do you consider Latinos, for example, Alexandria Ocasio-Lopez, as brown-skinned or olive-skinned?

My father's indicates "ruddy". Nothing on his brothers.

As for Latinos/Hispanics, it depends. Those of European (Spanish) origin I would consider on the lighter side of the olive spectrum (as you say you are). There are of course some darker Spaniards (I'd assume with Moorish blood).

Those from the Americas, while certainly having a mixture of European Spanish, also have considerable indigenous as well as other European ethnicities. But I consider them more brown than olive (although it's a hard case to make either way)...

[MarcuccioV]

So I just found this snapshot in a box of family photos. Back row from left, a cousin once-removed from my mom's side (100% Italian), my maternal grandfather (100%Italian/Sicilian/Med), my father (Mostly UK/NW Eur ancestry; maybe some small traces of French & Scandinavian, possibly Italian). Front row from left, my youngest maternal first cousin (50% Sicilian, 50% Italian/Sicilian/Med), myself.

First note that my cousin & I both appear to have the lightest skin -- we are both in reality VERY olive.

I can also tell you my grandfather when tan would be considered "bruno"; in fact, his coloring approached that of Tunisian level (and one matrix DID give me traces of Tunisian, but it was the only one to do so).

Note secondly this pic was taken at Xmastime when most people's skin tones lighten to their "untanned" level.

Tell me what you see here..?

[MarcuccioV]

And this is my paternal grandmother. Her dad was a lily-white, ginger-blonde Scots-Irishman. He died of carcinoma of the head at age 63. Her mother was the daughter of the infamous Frank.

Note her arm color next to my chest. She was not one to spend time outdoors for any long period.

I have other photos of her & she always seems to have at the lightest a 'ruddy' complexion...

Something to ponder...

[darkerhorse]

Do you have Frank's signature?