Had my Philly appt today!

[DeFilippis78]

I had my appt today in Philly and am utterly disgusted.They were very nice and very professional but I walked away with a huge list of documents I need and there are so many that Im not even allowed to send them in but have to make a second appt. In my personal opinion they are documents that shouldnt even matter.Ive invested a year and half and about $1000 and now they want me to invest more. Im at a crossroads on whether I should continue or not and wanted every ones input. Instead of me listing what I gave them, I will put what they need and the issues.I showed up at 9 and had people ahead of me so was finally seen at 10:30. My appt was me and my mother and lasted almost an hour and a half.

1-On my GGF birth certificate there is a mention of a first wife who is not my ancestor. I dont know why but I have to prove she died and I dont know when she did.

2- They need GGF death certificate because they said it should show if he naturalized or not on it. The problem is I know for a fact the date of birth is wrong in month, day AND year so Im not sure they will except it.

3- They need proof my GGF was married to my GGM, which shouldnt even matter because shes in the NON direct line. So they want a census because no marriage records were found. BUT, the census is the LAST thing I wanted to show because it says hes naturalized and every damn thing on the census is wrong. I have 6 records proving he didnt naturalize which they were impressed with but seeing a census with a
NA on it can ruin everything.But they need it for proof marriage which it shouldnt matter either. No marriage records have been found anywhere, at any archive or any church and even genealogists couldnt find it. Census is the only way

4- My mother has been married 3 times and divorced twice. They want all 3 marriage certificates and 2 divorce papers certified, sealed and translated.It will be a fortune!

5-They need my grandmother to sign a paper saying she never renounced citizenship and give photo ID which she REFUSES because shes old and paranoid about identity theft

6- They need an affidavit (I dont even know how to get this or where or what it costs) saying the Italian names were anglicized).

So.....what do I do? At what point do I walk away? How much more do I invest knowing that they can turn me away just because of a NA on a census? Or make a fuss over the wrong date of birth which I believe is too old and complicated to amend? I made no progress and am literally back to square one

Let me add, I dont have any intention of moving to Italy. Im only doing this as an investment for the future, ease of travel, and my kids. So its not crucial. It would be neat to have but isnt an emergency. Im so confused!!

[priere]

I think it's a pretty much proven fact that the no naturalization road is the one with the most challenges in general as they ask for so much documentation, related or not.

For your mum's divorce records, that actually does make a lot of sense as she also wants recognition if I recall correctly, and all life events need to be recorded in Italy.

For #2 have you tried seeing if any social security records exist for you GGF? Those have proven to be helpful.

For #1 in conjunction with #3 it almost sounds like they are looking to make sure that your GGF was actually married to your GGM or if he was a bigamist though I don't know how this would affect anything if his name was on his children's BC's.

[jennabet]

I recommend trying to fix everything they are asking for and apply again -- when your grand-mother is deceased.

[kontessa]

Wow, I'm sorry that you had such a discouraging experience. One suggestion might be to take some time to digest what's happened - take a break from the roller coaster ride. Then, over the next few weeks, you can re-examine your case to see what's achievable and then decide if you want to continue with your case. All that time, energy and money invested into a process that doesn't turn out like we planned can be VERY disheartening.

For suggestions/ideas - how difficult is it to change GGF's death record?

Do all of the census records show 'NA', or that your ancestor was naturalized?

Another poster mentioned SS records...maybe they could be used for proof of marriage?

Funeral home records or hospital records to supplement the SS record for proof of marriage?

Have you done any research in re to the first wife? Or requested a marriage record for this couple?

As distasteful as this sounds (sorry ), have you thought of submitting an affidavit (official format) that your GM is not of sound mind so either you or your mother are forced to provide any required statements on her behalf? (No offense, just a thought.)

Also, could you try an official affidavit to explain the Americanization of names?

Again, sorry that you had a less than positive outcome. Don't despair though, because many applicants that get turned away or find their cases to be nearly impossible sometimes end up with a positive result in the end. I died a thousand deaths during the build-up of my case, spent a shameful amount of money, and was successful in the end (took about 3 1/2+ yrs). It really is just deciding whether or not all of this is really worth it. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

[mler]

. . . and there is no reason that everything has to be done NOW. As, kontessa suggests, you need to take some time to get perspective on this. Now it seems a daunting task to meet all these requirements, but in reality, this is all doable.

Remember, too, that although the consulate may ask for specific documents and/or revisions at the first interview, often you can go back with acceptable substitutes.

To take the items one-by-one:

1. If you don't know when she died, make a quess and give it a try. At the very least, you should get a statement of "no record," which should be good enough for someone not in the line.

2. Try for the SS records as suggested. If this does not help, check to see if death records can be corrected. If they cannot be corrected, try the affidavit route to explain the errors.

3. I wonder if you can get an affidavit from a sibling of your gm stating that they were never married. It's possible they were not, and this would not affect your eligibility.

4. The divorce papers are an issue (especially for your mom). They are an issue for you as well unless you are the child of her first marriage. If you are the child of her first marriage, then you can bypass your mom without the divorce papers. But if all those papers will be needed, they are indeed possible to get. Just take it slowly to spread out the cost.

5. Your gm is being difficult, and that sometimes happens. Perhaps your mom can sign a statement on her behalf stating that her mother is fearful of signing legal documents.

5. This is the easiest one. An affidavit is simply a sworn statement. You write it and then have it notarized.

All of this can be done. Generally, the consulate will ask for specific changes and/or additional documents. They want to know that you made an effort to comply, but they will often be accommodating if your efforts are unsuccessful. Documents that you are unable to obtain for relatives not in the direct line often fall into this category. Also, a missing marriage record should also get by (again, you may have to say they were not married in order to avoid submitting the census).

Ultimately, the decision is yours. If you decide to go ahead with this, know that you have an entire community of posters to lend support.

[DeFilippis78]

I think they are being VERY difficult and want me to give up. When I left they told me they dont like to keep files open for long so I should work on it right away and contact them to get an appt to bring the documents in.

SS records dont apply here because the documentation is from 1898-1918. He married his first wife in Italy then they came here together. They had 2 children but they died in 1898. Then by 1905 he had his first child with my GGM. So somewhere between 1898-1905 the first wife must have died. I have no other way of pin pointing it.Plus if its in archives (died before 1901) I would have to go to trenton which I cant to search the films or hire someone which in my past experience was a couple month wait. If its post 1901- than I have to have vital records search and prove relation which I cant because shes not related to me.

The date of birth on his death certificate is an issue. For whatever reason he used the wrong date of birth for the rest of his life until his death in 1918. Only his birth certificate from Italy and the manifest have the right birth. All other records have the same date of birth as his death certificate.

My grandmother is of sound mind and is only in her early 70s. There is no one else to sign for her. Not to mention they said they definitely need a copy of her drivers license and she lives in south carolina. The only way to get her photo id is for her to give it to me. And waiting for her to die is ridiculous advice. And not very nice!

As far as my moms divorces, I am a child of the first marriage. It should be the only marriage that matters but they said no, they want ALL marriage and ALL divorce papers.

My GGF didnt have much documentation. He was only here about 20 years before he died in his 50s. There is only 1 census to his name and that is the one that shows hes married but claims hes naturalized so that would be a major issue

So taking all this into consideration I dont think there is much hope here. Its me and my mother applying, and am married with 4 kids. Thats 7 people to process and I think its too much work for them and they are hoping I just close my file which I might do.

[mler]

Just a few additional thoughts:

You tried to submit an application with your mom. For your mom, the divorce information is critical. If you apply alone, you can ignore it.

Do you actually need to prove that you are a relative, if the document is more than 100 years old? I am assuming that the only reason that they are requesting this document is because your ggf listed his marriage to your ggm as a second marriage. Again, if they don't find the records, you will have this in writing, and it should be enough.

Since your ggf deliberately used the incorrect date throughout his life, it seems the best course of action is to provide an affidavit stating this and affirming that he is indeed the same person. You may be able to correct the death record with a copy of his birth certificate.

It seems to me that your biggest hurdle is your gm. Her paranoia is causing difficulties, but you may be able to override it by claiming that she has no photo ID (does not drive), and try to get another identifying document instead--birth certificate, social security statement, etc.) She may be willing to sign a less-scary document that you write for her. For example: "I, (name), am writing this for my granddaughter, (name) who is applying for Italian citizenship recognition. I never gave up any right to Italian citizenship."

Is the consulate creating unnecessary hurdles? Somewhat. But some of these documents (specifically your gm's statement) are required. The others, I have a sense you can work around.

To get around the divorce document requirement, you will have to apply w/o your mom. Is it at all possible for you to somehow get proof of residency in northern or central NJ, thus sending you to a new consulate for a fresh start?

[DeFilippis78]

There is no way to establish residency anywhere else. Also, concerning my grandmother, they were not willing to waive seeing a photo ID. Thats a problem. As far as the death certificate for the first wife, Im hoping they would take a copy. Im sure I can somehow get a COPY of a death certificate (if I can find it) But if they want it certified, I would have to prove relation.Im wondering if I contacted the consulate and told them I wish to apply alone if they would change the requirements. I might give it a try.

[mler]

I would lean toward not asking the question. Simply go in w/o the divorce papers. If they remember the initial appt., they may ask for them, but your response would be that only you are applying. If/When your mom applies, she will supply the relevant divorce papers.

For your gm, you might want to ask her if she would be willing to let you copy her photo ID if you black out the information that concerns her. Her driver's license number is of no interest to the consulate.

[DeFilippis78]

I think they will remember every detail! They wrote down a list of everything they wanted and put big circles around the items that are essential with big question marks! I have to double check with my mother but I believe I asked them if it would be best to apply alone.Im almost certain they said it didnt matter. Without my mom I still need to provide ALL divorce papers because she is in the direct line.I think thats what they said

I asked them why they needed my GGF death certificate. Hes obviously dead or he would be the oldest man alive. They said it will have him marked as a citizen or not. I have a genealogical copy of his DC and there is nothing on it saying he was a citizen or not.I told them I dont believe every DC has that marking, especially the older ones. They said no, every DC should have a mark. Know anything about this?

I also dont know why they are hard timing me about marriages. I have solid proof of no naturalization and a very solid direct line. What happened to his first wife should be irrelevant to me. She made it sound like all is resting on getting a DC for his first wife. This seems so unfair to me. With a rock solid direct line they are going to turn me away because I dont have proof of the death of his first wife? Ridiculous! And why do they care if he was married to my GGM? Again they want to turn me away over a marriage document.

[rgaetano]

As per the citizenship information on death certificates- I agree with you that not every death certificate has this information, however, some do. All the death certificates for my case are from NYS, and my GGF's has a line for "citizen of what country" while none of the others do. Is there a reason why you only have the genealogical copy? Also, if you can amend the death certificate for the correct dates then you won't have to worry about the inconsistencies in dates. Not sure what state this is from but it seems that amending death certificates is fairly easy if you have proof that there is an error (it is in NYS).

[DeFilippis78]

The DC is from NJ. I initially requested the genealogical copy. I never got the certified copy because I believe the document is too old to amend and I didnt want to show it to the consulate with the wrong DOB. So I figured I wouldnt purchase it unless the consulate asked for it.I was hoping they would over look it :/

[sforza]

In New Jersey, if the vital record's in the archives, you do not need to furnish proof of relationship for them to do a search. They will search in two-year increments for you for $15. Here's the form: http://www.state.nj.us/state/darm/links ... equest.pdf
So for $30 you could search 1898, 1899 and 1900 for the first wife's death cert.
Re: post 1900 documents, you do have to furnish proof of relationship. Perhaps a letter from the consulate that it requires this document will suffice if your 1898-1900 search comes up empty.
Getting an amendment of a death cert in NJ is not hard. If you have his birth cert, that should do the trick. If you pursue this, feel free to PM me for the contact info of the very helpful woman who amended my GGF's NJ death cert.

[mler]

They may remember every detail, but they will have a hard time insisting on divorce information if only you are applying. Should they make it an issue, you simply state that you are applying NOT your mother. Your line goes through her first marriage, and subsequent marriages have no bearing on your eligibility. Since she is not applying for citizenship at this time, her divorces and subsequent remarriages are not required to be registered. I doubt very much that she will insist on this.

The other documents they are asking for seem possible to get. Now you need to work on convincing your gm to help you.

[jennabet]

I hope the grand-mother doesn't read this forum and learn that somebody suggested having her declared mentally incompetent, which in my opinion, is far worse than waiting for her to be deceased and maybe even illegal, since President Obama signed the Elder Justice Act last year.