Help to find the Birth Records of Giovanni Nicola Pace

[larapaes]

Hello, I have been trying to find the Birth Records of Giovanni, maybe someone can help me or give me a piece of advice (like where to find the lista di lleva of Naples in 1887):

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GIOVANNI NICOLA PACE

He was born in NAPLES province in 18/04/1886 or 18/04/1887

Son of NICOLA PORRECA and GIACINTHA PACE

He arrived in Brazil in 1897 with his parents and two brothers, PAOLO and DONATO

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In Brazil their surnames were completely changed, but now I finally figured out their names in Italian I am so hopeful to find a track of the family in Italy...

Thanks in advance for any possible help!

[mmogno]

(like where to find the lista di lleva of Naples in 1887)

http://www.archiviodistatonapoli.it/ser ... spondenza/

[larapaes]

thank you! Im going to take a look

[suanj]

Hello, I have been trying to find the Birth Records of Giovanni, maybe someone can help me or give me a piece of advice (like where to find the lista di lleva of Naples in 1887):

----------------------------------------------------------------
GIOVANNI NICOLA PACE

He was born in NAPLES province in 18/04/1886 or 18/04/1887

Son of NICOLA PORRECA and GIACINTHA PACE

He arrived in Brazil in 1897 with his parents and two brothers, PAOLO and DONATO

----------------------------------------------------------------

In Brazil their surnames were completely changed, but now I finally figured out their names in Italian I am so hopeful to find a track of the family in Italy...

Thanks in advance for any possible help!

Hi and welcome!
Just a my perplexity, as it could be possible that your ancestor don't had the father surname? if the father was Nicola Porreca, the son Giovanni was: Giovanni Porreca... no Giovanni( or Giovanni Nicola ) Pace.
Pace was the maiden name of Giacinta.. you can explain better?
suanj

[larapaes]

Hello suanj

Actually I don't know to explain why... The fact Giovanni has only his mother's last name is a mistery to me as well...
When I first found out his parents name, it was completely bad spelled, his father was "Nicola Bonego/Borrego" what for sure didn't sound as an Italian surname, so then I started to work with the possibility of his father being Spanish because I heard that in Spain people use to put the surname of the father first on their kids, and the surname of the mother after. So I thought Nicola might be the surname of his father in this logic, and it could explain why his was NICOLA PACE.

After that I found some more documents where Giovanni claims that his parents were both Italians, and that he arrived in Brazil with 10 years old in november/1897. Then I checked at the Imigration House and found a family PORRECA, where the father was Nicola, the mother was Giacintha and there were 3 kids with them, one 10 years old named Giovanni. This information disturbed me for 2 years, but I thought it was too much madness to think that the name BONEGO/BORREGO turned into PORRECA. Ok then.

Last month I was looking into the passengers list of a navy that arrived in november/1897 and there we go, I found again the PORRECA family with the same information of the Imigration House, but this time the name of the mother was written not only as Giacintha below the name of PORRECA NICOLA, it was written GIACINTHA PACE!

After that, I found a declaration where Giovanni claims to be legitimy son of Nicola and Giacintha and borned in Naples. So yes, I told you the whole story and I still can't answer why my antenatti doesn't have his father name as everybody else. Would love to know why too

[suanj]

Hi,
If Giovanni was the recognized child of Nicola Porreca, well his surname was Porreca, sure to 100%. In Italy the children have just the father surname.
Probably, instead, Nicola Porreca was the second husband of Giacinta and no the biological father of Giovanni Nicola, just a stepfather, or Nicola Porreca was the partner of Giacinta, and the children, if they was no recognized by biological father, had just mother maiden name... So, in this case, Giacinta was a single mother...

The fact that the name of your ancestor was Giovanni Nicola Pace let me understand that Nicola Porreca was no the biological father....

These infos are importants and necessaries, because our question is:

to search Giovanni Nicola Pace son of Giacinta Pace and son of unknown father?
To search Giovanni Nicola Pace son of Giacinta Pace and of a unknow father, but adopted no legally from Nicola Porreca??
or
to search Giovanni Nicola Pace son of a father named .... Pace, and of mother Giacinta ... maiden name unknown?

One thing is sure: the name of Nicola Porreca can help just to search abt probable birthplace, because especially Pace surname is very popular and no helpful....

If you have further details, let me know,
regards,
suanj

[larapaes]

Hi,

I see your point and actually these questions you make help me a lot to think. But there is something that might be stupid, but still intrigues me and I need to comment/ask:

I suspect that Giovanni and his brothers (Paolo and Donato) were registered as Nicola Pace too. I mean, if Nicola is just a second name is there any logic that all the sons of Giacinta possibly have this second name?

My antenatti (Giovanni) in Brazil was known as João Nicola Paes, and I might have found the track of one of his brothers (the youngest, that arrived in Brazil 4 years old) registered as Donato Nicola Paes. Also, my grandfather (son of Giovanni) who was born in Brazil was registered with Nicola on his name too (Joaquim Nicola Paes). I mean, it sounds all too odd for me.

I know for sure how Giovanni name and surname was written in Brazil, but I not sure about his batism name in Italy. My only track is the document I found with the Vapor's list (attached) but it didn't mention the kids might have a different surname than the father.

[suanj]

effectively, by ship's manifest, the children had the mother surname... But we cannot know if Pace was her maiden name or the her first husband surname... I don't understand why changed the surname...

we must search abt a Giovanni Nicola Pace or just Giovanni Pace, because I believe that the 3 Brother added Nicola just for respect abt Nicola Porreca... Actually by these infos is no possible make a helpful search... frankly at the beginning I was oriented towards the Abruzzo region, but you say Naples, and Naples is in Campania region, and I have strong doubts about "Naples" stated from Giovanni Nicola Paes, means Naples town. I think rather some Commune in the Campania region, of which Naples is the capital.

but where to search?

I searched in Salerno archive of State, in Liste di leva, and no records, I searched by surnames Porreca and Pace...
Also a little trace could give a good input... Can you find more in the brazilian records? maybe on the processo para casamento could be some helpful trace...
best regards,
suanj

[larapaes]

Hello, it is really interesting the idea of "Nicola" had beeen added to Giacinta's children names here in Brazil.

Actually I have some more input from Brazilian records, maybe these can be helpful:

-- Giovanni was married twice in Brazil, at first (1910) with my grand-grandmother (but she passed away with 25 years old) and then he got married again (1918) with another lady in another Brazilian city. I asked for the processo de casamento of both cases. The information I got in both processes were the same: he claimed (through a declaration and witnesses that knew the couple, no documents to prove) to be from Napoli province, Italy Kingdom. Also he say he was born in April 18, 1886.

-- Also I got a record (foreign registration) from the police station in Brazil in 1940. In this record Giovanni answers some questions about the ship and date he came (it helped me to track the passenger's list and the record from imigration house), his birthday (here he claims that was born in April 18, 1887) and where he was born. The thing is that is seems to be written the name of a comune that I don't know for sure and Italy after that. It seems to me like "Italia, Fieto" - but I couldn't find this name of town in Italy. I'm going to attach this record here.

-- Another record that I found was his death document. But again, the town it is mentioned on the document is almost impossible to read. It doesn't match to any name that I heard of.

So now I wonder if it's maybe a matter of dialect, specially after I found he was born in Naples. Could have different names for the same town, maybe?

[suanj]

Thank you, but it remains a mystery, I understand Naples province, but the name of the Commune is a mystery, I can not make it look like anything familiar. I can not even interpret the first letter. It does not seem to me Fieto, rather Tieto, or Pieto, I do not know ...
In Napoli I remember also the surname Paces... (sometimes spelled Pacces) maybe Paces could be more similar to Paes, rather than Pace...

Deeper research is needed, because if you can find the names of the parents of Nicola and Giacinta, you can better locate the area of origin.
Best regards,
suanj

[Caroline01]

hello guys i am new her in this web site ./. and wanna say that i love everything Italian

[larapaes]

Thank you, suanj

I guess I am going to focus on tracking Nicola and Giacinta in Brazil as you said. I know that in 1910 they had already passed, so that is something to begin looking into.

Also I found an email conversation that I had with someone in Brazil who is related to one DONATO NICOLA BORREGO (!) - I didn't remember this email exchanging that I had, it was 2 years ago - and this person told me the year of the death of Donato and the city in Brazil, which is actually near to the city that Giovanni lived. Also he said Donato was born in Naples, but that he didn't know the name of their parents. Considering Donato was the youngest child of the couple (4 years old when arrived in Brazil), maybe your theory is right about the second husband of Giacintha. So I think there is a lot to dig into this topic, and I feel good to have in a sense ways to investigate more.

So I would like to really thank you for all the insights, I'm going to continue my research and let you know if anything new come up.

Kind regards,
Lara Paes

[suanj]

Hi,
the name town could be VIETRI mispelled? Vietri sul mare is in Salerno province, no far from Naples...
regards,
suanj

[larapaes]

It could be, I'm going to check! Thank you

[larapaes]

Hi,
the name town could be VIETRI mispelled? Vietri sul mare is in Salerno province, no far from Naples...
regards,
suanj

Hello, I'm just here to say that now I have found another piece of information that makes sense:

In another record of Porreca family on the Imigration House in Brazil, it is written the family are from Abruzzo, Chieti. This information makes totally sense when I search for Porreca surname on cognomix.

Ok, but here is my question: What can I do with this information? I mean, I imagine you are right about Nicola Porreca being like a step father for Giovanni Nicola Pace (my antenati), so, how this information about Chieti might be useful for me? Giovanni claims that he was born in Napoli after all. Also if he wasn't blood related to Nicola Porreca I don't know for sure how this information about Chieti could help me. Do you have any idea or suggestion in mind?

Regards,
Lara Paes