I wanted to inquire to see if someone can advise me whether I would have a case for dual Italian citizenship under Jure Sanguinis. My situation is as follows.
My mother's father's father, (my great grandfather), was born in Italy in March of 1889. He came to the USA in February of 1921. He was married to an Italian citizen, and was married in Italy. He Naturalized as a US Citizen in January of 1928, while his wife and kids were still in Italy. His wife came to the USA in June of 1948, with a green card, which I have, but I have no idea if she was eligible to Derive Citizenship from her husband at that time. I am assuming she was still an Italian citizen. My mother's father, (my maternal grandfather), was born in Italy in December of 1911, and came to the USA in July of 1928. According to his Citizenship Certificate, he received Derived US Citizenship from his father in August of 1928, under section 339 of the Nationality Act of 1940. His certificate is dated 1942.
My mother's mother's father, (my other great grandfather on my mother's side), was born in Italy in September of 1884. He came to the USA in March of 1923. He was married to an Italian citizen, and was married in Italy. He Naturalized as a US Citizen in May of 1931, while his wife and kids were still in Italy. He died in February of 1937. His wife came to the USA in May of 1937, with a green card, which I have, but I have no idea if she was eligible to Derive Citizenship from her husband during that time period. If so, then what paperwork should I look for online? I don't have any evidence that she ever filed anything; so I am assuming she was still an Italian citizen. My mother's mother, (my maternal grandmother), was born in Italy in January of 1921, and came to the USA in August of 1937, after her father's death. According to her Citizenship Certificate, she received Derived US Citizenship, in August of 1942, under section 341 of the INA, making her 21 and an adult, at the time she was given citizenship. I am guessing she Derived it from her father, and don't know if it was possible to get it from her husband at that time?
My grandparents married in the USA in December of 1941
My mother was born in the USA in October of 1948
I was born in the USA in 1975
If it doesn't appear that I am eligible through the above information, then would it make any difference to find out if either of my grandfather's wives were derived US citizens or not, or would it make a difference to find out for sure how and from whom my Grandmother Derived Citizenship, or is the fact that her Certificate shows her as being 21 years old all I would need?
I want to be 100% sure that there is a definite pathway to citizenship for me before I invest all the time and money into a lost cause. Thanks in advance for any help that anybody can give me.
Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
The problem you have is that your maternal grandfather naturalized when he arrived in the US (being the child of a naturalized citizen). Had he been born in the US, his father's naturalization would not have affected him, but his birth in Italy meant naturalization and loss of citizenship even though his mother retained her own Italian citizenship.
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
Thank you very much for your help and advise. That was the same conclusion I came to regarding eligibility though my grandfather. What do you think regarding eligibility though my grandmother? Her circumstances seem a bit more tricky, and I am wondering if I would have a 1948 case?
My grandmother's information is as follows:
My mother's mother's father, (my other great grandfather on my mother's side), was born in Italy in September of 1884. He came to the USA in March of 1923. He was married to an Italian citizen, and was married in Italy. He Naturalized as a US Citizen in May of 1931, while his wife and kids were still in Italy. He died in February of 1937. His wife came to the USA in May of 1937, with a green card. My mother's mother, (my maternal grandmother), was born in Italy in January of 1921, and came to the USA in August of 1937, after her father's death. According to her Citizenship Certificate, she received Derived US Citizenship, in August of 1942, under section 341 of the INA, making her 21 and an adult, at the time she was given citizenship. I was guessing she Derived it from her father, but if her citizenship was granted in 1942, rather than in the 1930's, and shortly after her marriage, is it possible that they granted her derived citizenship through her husband rather than her father?
My grandparents married in the USA in December of 1941
My mother was born in the USA in October of 1948
Is there a 1948 case here, or some other loop hole?
Thanks.
My grandmother's information is as follows:
My mother's mother's father, (my other great grandfather on my mother's side), was born in Italy in September of 1884. He came to the USA in March of 1923. He was married to an Italian citizen, and was married in Italy. He Naturalized as a US Citizen in May of 1931, while his wife and kids were still in Italy. He died in February of 1937. His wife came to the USA in May of 1937, with a green card. My mother's mother, (my maternal grandmother), was born in Italy in January of 1921, and came to the USA in August of 1937, after her father's death. According to her Citizenship Certificate, she received Derived US Citizenship, in August of 1942, under section 341 of the INA, making her 21 and an adult, at the time she was given citizenship. I was guessing she Derived it from her father, but if her citizenship was granted in 1942, rather than in the 1930's, and shortly after her marriage, is it possible that they granted her derived citizenship through her husband rather than her father?
My grandparents married in the USA in December of 1941
My mother was born in the USA in October of 1948
Is there a 1948 case here, or some other loop hole?
Thanks.
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
When your gm came to the US in 1937 she received derivative citizenship from her father. What you have is a "Certificate of Citizenship," which has nothing to do with the date citizenship was obtained.
The problem for many minors who obtained citizenship through their parent's naturalization is that they had no official record of citizenship in their own names. Often, when they reached adulthood, they wanted official documentation of their citizenship. That's what the certificate actually is. The date on that certificate is the date the certificate was issued, not the date her derivative citizenship was granted.
Derivative citizenship could not be obtained through one's husband during that period of time.
I'm sorry, but I don't see a path through this line.
The problem for many minors who obtained citizenship through their parent's naturalization is that they had no official record of citizenship in their own names. Often, when they reached adulthood, they wanted official documentation of their citizenship. That's what the certificate actually is. The date on that certificate is the date the certificate was issued, not the date her derivative citizenship was granted.
Derivative citizenship could not be obtained through one's husband during that period of time.
I'm sorry, but I don't see a path through this line.
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
For a more detailed explanation of the Certificate of Citizenship, go to:
https://www.uscis.gov/n-600
and click on "Instructions for N-600". This section, not only explains what the Certificate of Citizenship represents, but also explains the procedure for obtaining one.
However, here's the issue.
Your grandmother met all criteria for obtaining US derivative citizenship except for the following:
"4. You must be living in the United States and in the legal and physical custody of your US citizen parent."
Since her father had died before she arrived in the US, she could not have been in his legal and physical custody. My guess is that she submitted a request for citizenship recognition based on her father's naturalization but that the question of his death before her arrival never came up.
This may be the loophole you seek.
In this case, your grandmother remained an Italian citizen because she never naturalized and because she did not meet all the criteria for derivative citizenship (although she somehow convinced the US that she did). I don't know how you would demonstrate this to the satisfaction of the consulate. Perhaps the page I cited would help, but this is definitely tricky.
This is not a 1948 case because her children were born after the 1948 law was enacted.
https://www.uscis.gov/n-600
and click on "Instructions for N-600". This section, not only explains what the Certificate of Citizenship represents, but also explains the procedure for obtaining one.
However, here's the issue.
Your grandmother met all criteria for obtaining US derivative citizenship except for the following:
"4. You must be living in the United States and in the legal and physical custody of your US citizen parent."
Since her father had died before she arrived in the US, she could not have been in his legal and physical custody. My guess is that she submitted a request for citizenship recognition based on her father's naturalization but that the question of his death before her arrival never came up.
This may be the loophole you seek.
In this case, your grandmother remained an Italian citizen because she never naturalized and because she did not meet all the criteria for derivative citizenship (although she somehow convinced the US that she did). I don't know how you would demonstrate this to the satisfaction of the consulate. Perhaps the page I cited would help, but this is definitely tricky.
This is not a 1948 case because her children were born after the 1948 law was enacted.
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
It seems a good possibility that the US was unaware that your gm emigrated to the US so many years after her father naturalized. They, therefore, assumed that she naturalized with her father, and gave her a Certificate of Citizenship.
My guess is you would need to show that your gm did not derive citizenship from her father. Some information that may help:
- The information from USCIS regarding the requirements for obtaining citizenship through a naturalized father.
- Proof of the date she arrived and began to reside in the US (accompanied by the date her father died)
- Proof of no naturalization
My guess is you would need to show that your gm did not derive citizenship from her father. Some information that may help:
- The information from USCIS regarding the requirements for obtaining citizenship through a naturalized father.
- Proof of the date she arrived and began to reside in the US (accompanied by the date her father died)
- Proof of no naturalization
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
Thanks for all the help and great information.
I have the date she arrived, which I found online in the ship manifests, then crosschecked it against her Italian passport and the actual ship ticket. They all matched, so I know that date for sure. I also have her father's death certificate, so there is no doubt to that date either.
Do you think gathering all these documents would be something that I would be able to handle myself or something that is better handled by a lawyer? If so then do you know of anybody reliable? Also, would it be something that can be handled through the consulate or by suing the Italian government?
Is there anything else you think I would need for my case other than those documents proving those dates and a copy of her uscis file?
Do you happen to know specifically how and what to request from uscis? Do I have to specifically ask for a "no proof of naturalization" and is that a different request than asking for a copy of her file?
Thanks
I have the date she arrived, which I found online in the ship manifests, then crosschecked it against her Italian passport and the actual ship ticket. They all matched, so I know that date for sure. I also have her father's death certificate, so there is no doubt to that date either.
Do you think gathering all these documents would be something that I would be able to handle myself or something that is better handled by a lawyer? If so then do you know of anybody reliable? Also, would it be something that can be handled through the consulate or by suing the Italian government?
Is there anything else you think I would need for my case other than those documents proving those dates and a copy of her uscis file?
Do you happen to know specifically how and what to request from uscis? Do I have to specifically ask for a "no proof of naturalization" and is that a different request than asking for a copy of her file?
Thanks
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
I gathered all my documents myself. It's really not that difficult, and most of it can be done online. I would suggest, however, that you schedule an appointment before you begin your document collection. There is generally a long wait for appointments at most consulates, and you can collect your documents while you wait.
I don't know how to obtain a "no-record" letter from USCIS because my grandfather did naturalize and I used NARA records. If you go to their website, I'm sure you will find detailed instructions. My guess is that you will need to ask for any information on naturalization in her name. (You certainly don't want them to send you a copy of the Certificate of Citizenship which will just confuse the issue.)
You will likely also be asked to prove that her mother did not naturalize while she was still a minor, so you would have to request records for her as well. You will need her father's naturalization records and then will have to try to convince them that his date of death and her date of arrival meant she did not obtain citizenship through his naturalization.
(The thing is that when an Italian came to the US as a minor, the parents' information is needed because there is always a possibility of derivative naturalization. Had she arrived in the US when her father was still alive, she would have been naturalized immediately upon arrival. Only his death before her arrival prevented this from happening. The Certificate of Citizenship is a complication, however, because it means the US thought she had citizenship.)
You cannot initiate a lawsuit in Italy unless your claim is first rejected at the consular level. So that's where you start.
I don't know how to obtain a "no-record" letter from USCIS because my grandfather did naturalize and I used NARA records. If you go to their website, I'm sure you will find detailed instructions. My guess is that you will need to ask for any information on naturalization in her name. (You certainly don't want them to send you a copy of the Certificate of Citizenship which will just confuse the issue.)
You will likely also be asked to prove that her mother did not naturalize while she was still a minor, so you would have to request records for her as well. You will need her father's naturalization records and then will have to try to convince them that his date of death and her date of arrival meant she did not obtain citizenship through his naturalization.
(The thing is that when an Italian came to the US as a minor, the parents' information is needed because there is always a possibility of derivative naturalization. Had she arrived in the US when her father was still alive, she would have been naturalized immediately upon arrival. Only his death before her arrival prevented this from happening. The Certificate of Citizenship is a complication, however, because it means the US thought she had citizenship.)
You cannot initiate a lawsuit in Italy unless your claim is first rejected at the consular level. So that's where you start.
Re: Jure Sanguinis Eligibility Question
Thank you so much for all the time you took to help me. I will take your advise and start gathering the information you suggested, and start with a uscis index search. It sounds like it is going to be a long process, but hopefully worth it in the end. Thanks again, and I will let you know if any further questions pop up.