Gammaro family

[suanj]

Hi,
I believe that the best option is to find the processo para casamento of Domenico, or almost his church marriage. Where he married ? On 1902 in....?
Regards,
suanj

[cgammaro]

in ... Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil. "Processo para casamento" you mean to find the documents that were provided at the time for him to get married like the birth certificate? When I went to get a copy of his marriage certificate I asked for the "habilitação de casamento" which were the documents that the couple provided when they married. The lady - not sure if she was telling me the truth - said that the marriage was too old and they didn't request documents at the time of the marriage. I doubt and I intend to return there and ask someone else. And I wonder if they have provided the documents at the time Then indeed name of mother is Samaritana Gammaro, that is the only time I saw that name?

I don't know the church that they married, if I knew I would have requested that paper to verify if any additional info is in there. But I checked other ppl old church records in Brazil to see how they look like, and the never say from "city x", they always say Italian or from Italy. I wonder if the church would have a birth certificate kept somewhere.

[suanj]

Yes the habilitação de casamento" . Many times are the birthplace wrote on... No documents provided but just the statement of bride and groom abt their data....abt the church? Where was baptized the first child? Probably is the same church where they married.... Normally to start a search in Italy without all brasilian documents and result' s search, well is no helpful...better to colletc all brasilian documents and infos, and then to start for the search in Italy. However I remembered some my search in the past.... Around same calabrian place, and the groom was also a mariner, but, because very difficults to find more, enlarging the search I descovered that moved in other region with a port: Naples..... So maybe Salvatore moved also, in some town, on the coast, to work...
Suanj

[cgammaro]

Yes the habilitação de casamento" . Many times are the birthplace wrote on... No documents provided but just the statement of bride and groom abt their data....abt the church? Where was baptized the first child? Probably is the same church where they married.... Normally to start a search in Italy without all brasilian documents and result' s search, well is no helpful...better to colletc all brasilian documents and infos, and then to start for the search in Italy. However I remembered some my search in the past.... Around same calabrian place, and the groom was also a mariner, but, because very difficults to find more, enlarging the search I descovered that moved in other region with a port: Naples..... So maybe Salvatore moved also, in some town, on the coast, to work...
Suanj

I will go back to registry office again and see if they have any notation about birthplace of him, I don't even have the birthdate yet... first child was my grandfather who born in 1904 in São Paulo but I don't know exactly where he was baptized. Need to ask my aunts, my father's sisters. They were born after Domenico death so they don't know nothing about him, not even where he was buried.

Regarding the documents I have everything except his birth and death.

Salvatore (great great grandfather) - documents are not required for citizenship, possibly you found the birth and marriage if that Salvatore Fortunato is him
Domenico (great grandfather) - birth and death missing, have marriage
Salvador (grandfather) - birth, marriage, death
Sergio (father) - birth, marriage, death
Cesar (me) - birth

[suanj]

Oh yes, ok, it is fine!
suanj

[cgammaro]

Hi suanj,

I'm still searching for the info and I might have some news in the coming days as I found a 2nd cousin that I contacted, maybe she knows city and date that Domenico was born.

In the other hand, if you recall you found a register that might be my great great grandfather, Salvatore.
I found his brother (Antonio), same parents, maybe that can help in any manner on finding my great grandfather SAMARITANO GAMMARO DOMENICO?

SIAS Code IT-ASCS-F680258
Ufficio Leva della Provincia di Cosenza, Enlistment year 1861.Volume number 64,
document number - page 99 section -
Antonio Fortunata Gammaro, enlisted on --/--/----
born on 09/08/1861 to SAN LUCIDO
son/daughter of Francesco Gammaro and of Rosa Verre

Thanks,
Cesar

[suanj]

Hi Cesar,
I searched so much in San Lucido civil records on line and I no foumd Domenico birth record.... Maybe the civil records microfimed are no complete, who know...
Regards,
suanj

[cgammaro]

Hi suanj,

Thanks anyway, as I said I managed to find a 2nd cousin, and I will be calling her today. She may be in position to give me more information, as I told you before I don't have Domenico birth AND death certificate. If she can lead me at least to the death certificate maybe there I can find a clue about where he was born? I was in the hope to find information the marriage but it only says italian, not city or date.

If we have that confirmation about the birth date, or maybe the city that can help a lot. So frustrating that the family didn't keep records of that information, it is not only about the citizenship is about history.

Regards,
Cesar

[cgammaro]

Hi suanj,

She doesn't have any information but she will be contacting her sister that may know something about Domenico. In the meantime I will be searching for his death record and I will let you know about any news.

Regards,
Cesar

[suanj]

Hoping good luck to you... my opinion is that your ancestor was born in San Lucido, but by the civil records on line, I don't found... I wish to help but I searched in many communes and I don't found...
Best regards,
suanj

[cgammaro]

Thank you suanj.

When you say you searched in the communes you mean you looked at the online records right? If that is the case I'm hoping they are not up to date. Have you had situations where you didn't find a record online and then the record was there?

And truly, I'm losing hope as I don't find any clues about his birth city, would you say I still should have hope?

Regards,
Cesar

[suanj]

Yes Cesar,
I had just 2 times this situation (abt a 1 civil record and 1 baptism record) where the records don't was found in the online records ( microfilms of the second copies, coming from the provincial Archives or Court Archives), but the records was found in the municipal archives of birthplace as a well in the parish archive...

Best regards,
suanj

[cgammaro]

Hi suanj,

I will focus on the death registry from now on, trying to find clues for the birthplace/date. I haven't found it yet, maybe it has a clue about the birth.

Regards,
Cesar

[cgammaro]

Hi suanj,

I have great news! I finally found the death record of both Samaritano Gammaro Domenico and Salvatore Gammaro his father.

Ok, so here is the history, Salvatore Gammaro was born in San Lucido, you found the record 1853 Salvatore Fortunato Gammaro, dates match, married to Maria Carolina Sammarco, 1879, immigrated to Brazil around 1888, he then died in 1895. His wife (according to the death record) was Carolina Gammaro, that match your findings, says he was 40 years old, that is very close, then it says he left an only child named José. So I was like, this is not the guy but it turns out that Domenico (Domingos) came 2 years later and requested the record to be changed, saying his name was Domingos Gammaro not José. I read the paper too quickly today before coming to the office I don't recall if it mention that Carolina was already dead but I will check later. Anyway... Salvatore Fortunato Gammaro was indeed my great-great-grandfather, his son was Domenico.

So in the same civil records office I found the death record of Domenico died in 1921, however again here at the time people went there and told his name was José. This is why I couldn't find it originally, but because in my grandfather marriage certificate was mentioned the exact date that his father died, I gave the exact date and they found the registry. Again I read it too quickly, don't remember if it has the name of the mom but it has the father Salvatore Gammaro in it I remember, same person, my great grandfather... so we understand the history now and you were of essential help.

1853 Salvatore Fortunato Gammaro is born in San Lucido
1879 Salvatore and Maria Carolina Sammarco marry in San Lucido
1879-1882 Domenico is born in Unknown comune
1888 Salvatore age 34 and Domenico 10 immigrated to Brazil
1895 Salvatore dies at age 40
1902 Domenico age 26 marry Rosa Muglia
1904 1st child is born
1906 2nd child is born
1908 3rd child is born
1921 Domenico died at age 45

I'm now missing the birth certificate of Domenico only. None of the certificates I had access to tell anything about the city he was born.

For my citizenship I have two challenges now:

1. Find the birth record of my great grandfather because I need to know his real name, birth date and city to start the process in the italian consulate.

2. With the correct names available from the birth certificate start to correct all the brazilian certificates that have incorrect names, most likely I will have to hire a lawyer to do that but okay.

I have to thank you for everything so far!!! I really appreciated the help you have given me.

What would you do next? Where should I start researching? Would you suggest I write to the comune because maybe the birth record is there in San Lucido and not available online? Or should I look somewhere else? FamilySearch? Any website?

Regards,
Cesar

[suanj]

Happy for your find! I know that some italian in Brasil changed the first name, no legally, just used another first name... In USA that was more common, but also in Brasil someone made so, and that is a problem for a genealogist.

Well I was pretty sure abt my find and that Samaritano was no the Domenico mother maiden name.
Now all matching.
I believe your Domenico was born also in San Lucido. And I don' t know if the records on line are complete to 100% or some additional birth register was no microfilmed. So just San Lucido can know abt that... I advice you to write in San Lucido, in italian language, and to wait the reply!
Good new year,
suanj