Foundling and new surname at death

[Chocopies]

Do people with foundling surnames have their surname replaced with their actual surname later in life if it is identified?

I noticed that one of my ancestors, a male and probably a foundling, had a foundling surname followed by a second surname which I think he adopted before having children as it slowly transformed with each successive child before settling on a final form, then his first name followed by what looks like 'Miriamis' which I assume is in Latin and I may be misreading it. It correctly lists his surviving wife's name. What is the meaning of the extra name after his first name (which is not on his baptism record--assuming I have the correct one)?

Then, 2 years later his wife passed away, and this time it listed her husband as my ancestors first name and a completely different last name and nothing else. I realize that it might simply be an error. But, I am not mistaken that it is her death act as it also lists her parents' names correctly.

These are all records from their church. Is it possible that his father or surname was known by the church and used applied only to him at death (do people have deathbed confessions where they admit to being the father of a child with an unwed mother, and if so, would the church record, reveal, or conceal it?

[adelfio]

How are you?
Let see the record his birth and death record and her death record?
What year is it?
What is his name his name death and his death name?

Marty

[Anizio]

I would need to see the records to be able to answer.

I mean the answer could be "yes" but the question is not is possible, the question is did it happen in your case. A number of things are possible.

You say these are church records? Well church records tend to make reference to both nicknames and what we call "sopracognomi" which are essential secondary surnames. It could be that your ancestor had a foundling name AND ended up being "known" by his community by another name and so that other name started being included more and more in church records.

Ie. My ancestors were, in church records, descended from Ippolito Brunetti. But some of his children and grandchildren in church records ended up being called Brunetti, some "de Pollo", some "Polli" -- why? Because Ippolito's nickname was Pollo and that nickname ended up being attached to the family name and eventually in some of the family lines Brunetti was dropped and only Polli was used, while other lines kept using Brunetti.

Surnames before the modern era are more complicated that people seem to understand, its important not to view the past with a 2018 mindset.

[Chocopies]

How are you?
Let see the record his birth and death record and her death record?
What year is it?
What is his name his name death and his death name?

Marty

I am well, thank you! I am gathering the links and will start posting them to this thread soon.

[Chocopies]

Here is the record of his death (pg 364 No.108 the second from the top) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2016233

It says that he was 78 on October 5, 1924, so I suppose he was born somewhere between October 1845 and October 1846.

[Chocopies]

I checked their church (nati processetti) between 1842 and 1854. There was only ONE Vincenzo (incogniti genitori), and he was baptized April 17, 1848: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=665013
I would guess that this is him even though the year suggested by his age in his death record would be a year or two earlier.

His wife and he said that they were both 25 when one of their children was born in 1875 (in a civil record), which gives a year around 1849-1850. But, I have noticed that the ages given in municipal records are often best guesses or perhaps even intentionally wrong.

In the church's birth records for his first 6 or 7 children, his name is given as either del Popolo or del Fiore. The third child's surname was written as 'del Fiore', but crossed out and rewritten as 'del Popolo' and then following that 'detto del fiore', which I assume means his father was called Vincenzo del Fiore.

By the last child I found, he was called 'Belfiore' and in all records thereafter: civil records -> 'Belfiore' and church records -> 'Belfiore' or 'del Popolo Belfiore'. So it seems that he started life with no surname, then had 'del Popolo' applied by the church when referring to him as 'del Popolo' was the common name given to foundlings and I assume children of unwed mothers or fathers whose surnames were del Popolo. But, he was known as or called 'del Fiore' or 'Belfiore'. There were some other Belfiores in town and many in a neighboring town though so I am not sure that that is all there is to the story.

Finally, his church death record I posted earlier refers to him as 'Vincenzo Belfiore del Popolo Mariamis? or Mariano?'. This is why I am confused. I am use to seeing 'del Popolo + other surnames' in town which I thought meant that the father was either unknown or actually called 'del Popolo' and the mother's surname followed. But, why is his given with the del Popolo after a surname or what he was called? And what does the 'Mariam..' mean at the end of his name? Thank you!

[Tessa78]

Have you tried to view the civil registrations of births for the proietti (abandoned/unknown parents) on the digital film?

Though only available to view at a Family History Center or an affiliated library (your local library if a FHC is some distance away), you may find the civil registration for the child Vincenzo for whom you found a church record in 1848...


Nati (proietti) 1841-1860 -- Matrimoni 1820-1856
Family History Library
International Film
1466582
7853224

T.

[Chocopies]

Thank you, and no, I didn't realize that that is what 'proietti' meant; but that sounds very promising. It would also help me account for all the Vincenzo births in the town, whereas currently I can only access 2 of the 3 churches' baptism records. I also see that the FHCs are all over the world.

Do these 'proietti' records get updated as new information regarding parentage is revealed?

[Chocopies]

Thanks to everyone's help, I found the Vincenzo I linked earlier in this thread in the town's Atti di proierri. This is the right Vincenzo and this record was made on exactly the same day as the baptism record.

Apparently his name was 'Vincenzo Belfiore del popolo' from that day forward. I am not sure where the name 'Belfiore' came from or even 'Vincenzo' for that matter. I am having difficult extracting that information from the document (if it is even there to be found). I started a new thread for translating it in the translation forum if anyone is interested in seeing it or helping. I do know that the church wrote 'Vincenzo incogniti genitori'.

In the meantime, I will focus on his wife and marriage. Strangely, the year I guessed was the year they married based on their ages and the their first child's birth, 1870 may not exist ! At least Familysearch does not indicate it is within any of their films for the town. I look from 1868ish to 1871 but had no luck. And, the church they likely married in is missing records for half of the year 1870's marriages!

Anyway, I am not sure I have the right wife, so I am comparing the baptisms to the marriages to eliminate Giuseppas that married other men. Like Vincenzo, I am relatively sure I already have identified the right Giuseppa, but I will feel better with more evidence. Thank you again for all of your help!

[Italysearcher]

Belfiore del Popolo actually means Beautiful flower of the people. A fantasy name invented for the babies found abandoned. In some towns where 'del Popolo' was added to each foundling surname the 'del popolo' part was often dropped as it was more of a designation than part of his surname.

[Chocopies]

Yes, that seems to be the case here. 'del Popolo' was the common surname given by the churches in this town too by the late 1800s. However, there were a few older Belfiores in this town and many in a neighboring town (in another province). This makes me wonder why the name was chosen. Was it because it was a "foreign" name for this town? Or, was he adopted by a Belfiore through an arrangement with the midwife/wheel woman?

I wonder about these last questions because I noticed the appearance of many '___surname___ + del Popolo's showing up in the church records in the latter half of the 1800s and importantly, MOST of the surnames assigned were common LOCAL surnames.

I need to go back and look at the records more closely to see if they were '___surname___ + del Popolo' or 'del Popolo + ___surname___'. Maybe there is a distinction there. Perhaps the latter would be for a child born to a wedded couple where the father was a del Popolo and the mother was not.

But, if there is no difference, why would the town official be giving foundlings local surnames?

[suanj]

I believe that Del Popolo is a surname of foundling, meaning: (son) of the people (so anyone could be his father), and because it was many Del Popolo, the clerk to add another surname, to anyone Del Popolo, to disguise a little that of a foundling, and to let understand that the all Del Popolos was no siblings... no relatives..
suanj

[Chocopies]

I believe that Del Popolo is a surname of foundling, meaning: (son) of the people (so anyone could be his father), and because it was many Del Popolo, the clerk to add another surname, to anyone Del Popolo, to disguise a little that of a foundling, and to let understand that the all Del Popolos was no siblings... no relatives..
suanj

Thank you for your answer. It does make sense that the official would add another name to avoid confusion and soften the impact of a foundling identity. However, why would they choose common local names as was the case in many instances in this town? Wouldn't that just add to the confusion--where people with the same surname could be confused as relatives with a foundling with no connection other than name? Was the appended 'del Popolo' sufficient to prevent such confusion?

I am genuinely curious and find the whole subject of foundlings in Italy fascinating. I know that my ancestor did very well considering his difficult beginning. He married well, had many children over a 20 year period and lived into his late 70s.

[suanj]

No, no add confusion, because as I said earlier, adding another surname, chosen among the local surnames, the origin of the person, being a foundling, was somehow masked. That is, he did not make it seem like a foundling. It was a practice to add a real surname to one of a foundling who was in use for a number of years. Then he was abandoned, and only the surname of a foundling remained.
No, no add confusion, because as I said earlier, adding another surname, chosen among the local surnames, the origin of the person, being a foundling, was somehow masked. To be a foundling, was shaming for a person, so to understand what I say, it needs to go back in the time, with the mind, and to understand that the peoples was illiterates, and to be a foundling was shaming...
That is, adding a common surname, he did not make it seem like a foundling to 100%, it was like a compassion..

It was a use, to add a real surname to one of a foundling, who was in use for a number of years. Then he was abandoned, and only the surname of a foundling remained. Like now.
If I remember well, a royal law around the 1810s, ordered the foundlings to have a surname that was invented and not attributable to any local surname. This is to avoid misunderstanding, especially abt the inheritances..
And in any case, the registrar was left with a large margin of choice...

So give a surname to a foundling, meaning having to choose a surname that let you understand that it was a foundling, and totally different from a local surname. And so there were children with names that were ridiculous, invented, very strange. It was immediately clear that he was foundling. Then he began to put a surname that indicated the condition of foundling, such as Esposito, Proietto, Proietti, Trovato, degli Innocenti, etc etc .. to which for a certain time's period was accompanied by a local surname, slightly changed talvota, always not to give rise to the misinterpretations abt inheritances of real families having same common surname..
But, then remained just the foundling surname on the Birth records...
Currently the old foundling's surname are no used, and the registrar shas returned to choose absurd fantasy names...
recently I know a man, with a surname that translate in english is Artificial.. and he said: " Mrs but... how is it possible that the registrar gave me a similar surname. It is still ridiculous today!"

So to give a complete explanation abt foundling's surnames is no possible, because it depend from the registrar's culture, and from the place's culture, and from the era .. etc etc...

[Italysearcher]

There are a number of posts on my website about foundlings that you might find helpful