Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
My relative immigrated to NY in 1893, (and his wife in 1894), he filed “first papers” in 1895, and was naturalized in 1898. In the meantime his son was born in NY in November 1894.
In July of 1912 the father and son returned to Italy. I have been trying to figure out if the son would have been considered an “Italian citizen” (citizenship), particularly in regards to his obligation or participation in the Italian army. He was “called to arms” in November of 1915. He had leave in December of 1919.
(He then applied for a US passport in 1924 which was initially refused, then returned to NY in 1925.)
I posted this here because of the knowledgeable sources in this forum, especially regarding the history of citizenship rules (both Italian and US), and as much as I have researched this, I cannot determine to a certainty what rules would have applied. I appreciate any input.
Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
This is an interesting scenario. There are two possibilities.
1. The son (born in 1894 in the US) automatically lost Italian citizenship because his father naturalized before 1912. However, his mother would have obtained US citizenship automatically through her husband’s naturalization, and would never herself have naturalized. You could probably initiate a 1948 case through her since courts have ruled that a woman did not lose citizenship if she obtained another citizenship automatically through the actions of her husband.
2. Technically, if the father and son returned to Italy and remained there for a long period of time (I’m not sure the exact number of years), they would both have regained their Italian citizenship. Proving a lengthy stay in Italy may prove difficult, but if the son actually served in the Italian military, that would establish his citizenship. Just receiving a draft notice, would be insufficient if he didn’t actually serve.
1. The son (born in 1894 in the US) automatically lost Italian citizenship because his father naturalized before 1912. However, his mother would have obtained US citizenship automatically through her husband’s naturalization, and would never herself have naturalized. You could probably initiate a 1948 case through her since courts have ruled that a woman did not lose citizenship if she obtained another citizenship automatically through the actions of her husband.
2. Technically, if the father and son returned to Italy and remained there for a long period of time (I’m not sure the exact number of years), they would both have regained their Italian citizenship. Proving a lengthy stay in Italy may prove difficult, but if the son actually served in the Italian military, that would establish his citizenship. Just receiving a draft notice, would be insufficient if he didn’t actually serve.
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
Thank you mler. Very interesting.
I did not mean to mislead, but this is a distant relative. I am for now, only trying to understand the issue and rules relative to the Italian Army and HIS conscription or enlisting at that time (that is, after arriving in 1912 and leading up to WW1).
He seems to have followed the conscription process, but I am wondering if he offered (willingly) himself to join. Since he was a US born, I had assumed he did not have to join the military, regardless, but I wasn't sure.
I am not sure I understand, based on the 1912 law (Italy), the father started the US naturalization process in 1895, just after the son was born in 1894...
I am not sure I am expressing myself properly.
(My own personal situation is quite different again, but I will leave the question of obtaining my own Italian citizenship for another post...)
I did not mean to mislead, but this is a distant relative. I am for now, only trying to understand the issue and rules relative to the Italian Army and HIS conscription or enlisting at that time (that is, after arriving in 1912 and leading up to WW1).
He seems to have followed the conscription process, but I am wondering if he offered (willingly) himself to join. Since he was a US born, I had assumed he did not have to join the military, regardless, but I wasn't sure.
I am not sure I understand, based on the 1912 law (Italy), the father started the US naturalization process in 1895, just after the son was born in 1894...
I am not sure I am expressing myself properly.
(My own personal situation is quite different again, but I will leave the question of obtaining my own Italian citizenship for another post...)
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
If he served in the Italian army, he would have been considered an Italian citizen.
Before the 1912 citizenship law was enacted, any naturalization by the father caused the loss of Italian citizenship for him, his wife and his minor children no matter where or when they were born.
Before the 1912 citizenship law was enacted, any naturalization by the father caused the loss of Italian citizenship for him, his wife and his minor children no matter where or when they were born.
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
.... got it now...thanks
to answer your previous question, yes he served in the Italian campaign 1915-1918...so by doing so he would have regained Italian citizenship after this ? do I understand this part correctly... thanks
to answer your previous question, yes he served in the Italian campaign 1915-1918...so by doing so he would have regained Italian citizenship after this ? do I understand this part correctly... thanks
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
Yes, he would have reacquired his Italian citizenship by serving in the Italian military. Actually, he was probably considered an Italian citizen long before his service if he and his parents resided in Italy for the requisite number of years (I believe it was 5.)
His Initial difficulty in obtaining a US passport may have been based on his military service. Or he may not have been fluent in English and/or held an Italian passport. (These are all just possibilities.).
In any case, a man who was born in the US and had a birth certificate to prove it would not ultimately be denied a passport. So this was a situation in which dual citizenship was not only possible, but likely.
His Initial difficulty in obtaining a US passport may have been based on his military service. Or he may not have been fluent in English and/or held an Italian passport. (These are all just possibilities.).
In any case, a man who was born in the US and had a birth certificate to prove it would not ultimately be denied a passport. So this was a situation in which dual citizenship was not only possible, but likely.
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
Thank you.
He and the father arrived in August 1912. So they would have resided a little more than 3 years before the son's military service, which started in Nov 1915.
The father was in Italy from birth (1857), until departure to the US (1893). And again from 1912 until his death in 1930...
He and the father arrived in August 1912. So they would have resided a little more than 3 years before the son's military service, which started in Nov 1915.
The father was in Italy from birth (1857), until departure to the US (1893). And again from 1912 until his death in 1930...
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
It seems both would have reacquired Italian citizenship, and you may want to check the comune records because their residency would be established there. At the same time, neither would have lost US citizenship (exceedingly difficult to do).
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
Thank you mler, very helpful. At a later time I will try to lay out my own situation. 
Re: Italian citizenship vs US Naturalization prior to WW1
www.bardazzilaw.com
you can find your answers here.
you can find your answers here.