Here's a pickle regarding the 1912 and 1948 laws

[kitcatlvr]

So, My great great grandfather may have naturalized to the US before his death in 1910 (I'm awaiting a response from my local NARA branch, but alas covid). His son, my great grandfather was born after his death in 1910.

So, at the time my GGGM would have automatically lost her citizenship due to her husband naturalizing, but this is prior to 1912... Would this still be considered at 1948 case? She never gave up her citizenship and was marked down as "Alien" in every census. As far as I can tell, if this happened after 1912 it would be a 1948 case. But unsure about prior to 1912 being 1948 cases.

Logically, if it were unconstitutional to lose your citizenship just because your husband naturalized, and you could also pass your citizenship to your children due to the 1948 law, and with how it's now being applied retroactively to pre1948 situations, wouldn't that also cover pre1912 cases?

It's a pickle and I know only a Lawyer can give me a definitive answer as to what is most likely, but I'd like all your thoughts.

[mler]

You’re right in that the pre-1912 naturalization complicates matters, but your gggm would never have naturalized since she obtained US citizenship from her husband. Since she was listed as “alien” on the census, it’s quite possible that your gggf did NOT naturalize, and that would simplify matters for you.

Even if he did naturalize before 1912, you may still be able to initiate a 1948 case, but you would need to find a lawyer who is willing to take on a case with this additional complication.

Wait for the NARA results. You may get a pleasant surprise.

[kitcatlvr]

You’re right in that the pre-1912 naturalization complicates matters, but your gggm would never have naturalized since she obtained US citizenship from her husband. Since she was listed as “alien” on the census, it’s quite possible that your gggf did NOT naturalize, and that would simplify matters for you.

Even if he did naturalize before 1912, you may still be able to initiate a 1948 case, but you would need to find a lawyer who is willing to take on a case with this additional complication.

Wait for the NARA results. You may get a pleasant surprise.

So you're right about that pleasant surprise, sort of!

NARA couldn't find such a record in their digital files and will be checking their physical files since my location is slowly reopening. BUT on top of that, the Naturalization Index record I had found that I thought might be my Giuseppe Billeci because it covered 1906-1919, and he died in 1910? Well it never sat right with me that "Billeci" was on page 45 of 74. Then I realized the whole thing would let me "turn" the pages. I looked at the previous page and that page (44) was the start of the Index for 1916! 6 years after my Giuseppe was dead.

So, while I wait for USCIS and NARA to get back to me with confirmation, I'm reasonably confident now that I do NOT have a 1948-ish case.

Thank you

[afecad]

You may want to check the County Courthouse your relative lived in as NARA will note Census records and this:

Naturalization activity prior to September 27, 1906, was under the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts.
Naturalization records may be found in Federal, State, or local court records.

[kitcatlvr]

You may want to check the County Courthouse your relative lived in as NARA will note Census records and this:

Naturalization activity prior to September 27, 1906, was under the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts.
Naturalization records may be found in Federal, State, or local court records.

Thank you for the reminder! I just now sent off some emails to the court system because of it. I previously sent some questions to the county clerk offices, forgetting that county clerks and court clerks are not the same thing.

[afecad]

You may want to check the County Courthouse your relative lived in as NARA will note Census records and this:

Naturalization activity prior to September 27, 1906, was under the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts.
Naturalization records may be found in Federal, State, or local court records.

Thank you for the reminder! I just now sent off some emails to the court system because of it. I previously sent some questions to the county clerk offices, forgetting that county clerks and court clerks are not the same thing.

Good luck, I did get a "no records exist" for my Grandfather, but he also listed "NA" on the census forms and NARA mentioned this in the letter that would be sent along to gain citizenship, it also said prior to 1906 local courthouse.

[kitcatlvr]

Good luck, I did get a "no records exist" for my Grandfather, but he also listed "NA" on the census forms and NARA mentioned this in the letter that would be sent along to gain citizenship, it also said prior to 1906 local courthouse.

Thanks! As of today I've contacted all the court houses in the county he lived in. San Fran district federal court, contra costa court, and for the SF superior court the SF district court told me that it was very highly unlikely I'd find anything at the SF superior court because of the 1906 fire, assuming they haven't sent their records to NARA yet. I kept getting directed back to NARA lol. Contra Costa said they don't do (and to that person's knowledge never did) naturalization or maintain those records. SF district said their archives *there* don't start until the 1920s. I'm just waiting to hear back for sure from the SF Superior court. I do have to say, if you have to deal with the SF district federal court, the guy there in charge of naturalizations is really nice and helpful. He said half his job is helping people get documents for dual Italian citizenship haha.

[afecad]

I even question if anything beyond no record found letter from NARA is needed or if they will raise red flags if census forms state "NA"? I also really wonder how many people gained their Italian citizenship via relatives who were indeed naturalized, though that's the written rule, I sorta feel it's based on the honor system because many records are buried in courthouses basements, not available online and/or lost due to fires or etc.

Also he big kicker, In the United States, prior to the mid 1960's when an Italian national became a naturalized United States citizen, he or she was required to renounce and give up their Italian citizenship as a part of the naturalization process.

[kitcatlvr]

I really wonder what happens if the census says "NA" as well. Because, like, lots of people lie on the census, especially if they fear deportation. Or they started the process and didn't understand the question. So, what happens when the certified census says that?

I think since we came from a time where records were so spotty that inevitably there are people that are getting recognized even though their ancestors naturalized. But, at the same time, if there's no proof of it, and the descendant doesn't know otherwise I think it's kind of a no-harm no-foul kind of thing. Especially since it seems like (to me) that lots of people looking to get their passport are interested in at some point living in Italy, which means paying Italian taxes and learning more of the culture.

Luckily in my case (even though the father was dead by that point) the mom is very clearly still labeled as "AL".

[afecad]

My great-grandfather claimed NA before my Grandfather was born on the census forms, though NARA could not find any records. My Great-Great Grandfather was not naturalized until the 1930's, 15+ years after my Grandfather was born, so it might make it easier to use him vs. my Great-Grandfather, still waiting to determine this?

Agree on the plan for many on why they want an Italian passport and after Covid and lack of American tourists this summer, Italy in general has taken a big hit, don't think they will scrutinize these details so much.

[mler]

Is this great great grandfather the father of the great grandfather for whom you could not find records or is this another family line?

Be careful to work one generation at a time. You mention the status of your gggf and then skip to gf. Take it from gggf to ggf to gf. How does that work out?

Don’t count on lack of scrutiny; you will be disappointed. COVID has simply slowed down the process, but there is little evidence of additional leniency.