Rejected in London...strange reason! Xenophobic bureaucrat?

[dannyjosa]

Hello,
I was in the London Consul today and was turned away. They refused to take my documents for this reason:

'Children born to Italians before 1912 cannot pass on Italian citizenship, even when their parent never naturalised abroad.

*So, I have evidence that my ancestor didn't naturalise abroad until 1916 so should be fine, his son was born abroad in the 1870s but shouldn't lose citizenship if his father kept his! The lady wasn't interested that I had evidence my ancestor never naturalised, she just claimed that the unflinching policy of all Italian consulates is that

any child born overseas before 1912 cannot be Italian because they acquire citizenship abroad through birth and thereby lose their Italian citizenship.

To me, after all my research, this is strange and it flies in the face of all other information I have read. Just wondering what the forum thinks?

FYI:
This bureaucrat was eccentric/possible National Front, among other things she said:
"I am the State"...[only my interpretation is the correct one]
"The 1948 law permitting women to transmit citizenship is a disgrace"
"Italy is crazy to allow foreigners with historic links to Italy to claim citizenship"
"You can win citizenship if you go through a tribunal, they are a fiasco and allow Italian law to be broken"
She also tried to conduct the interview in Italian and told me not to move to Italy if I am not yet fluent in Italian (I am studying Italian and can hold basic conversation fyi.)
She seemed to be very anti-immigrant and strange...

What do people think? Is this normal? Is my reason for rejection legitimate? As far as I know, pre-1912 children born outside Italy can be Italian as long as their parents didn't naturalise (as in my case, but she insisted I am wrong!)

Thanks all!

[mler]

The comments you noted are definitely indicative of a prejudice that would prevent that person from following Italian law.

However, let’s look closely at this. You mention “abroad” several times. Are you referring only to England or was there another stop along the way? If the latter, you would need to prove that no naturalization occurred in the other country of residence as well as in Italy.

If the former, you should contact the Italian consulate and request a meeting with another representative. Her job is to enforce Italian law, not to interpret it; that is the role of the judiciary. The opinions she expressed may be shared by some Italians, but until the law changes, current laws need to be enforced. Her conduct was so egregious that an official complaint is justified and she should be replaced if she thinks her opinions supersede Italian law.

Edited to add: The only significance of the year 1912 is that before that date, naturalization caused the loss of Italian citizenship for the entire family even for those born before that naturalization took place.

You may want to post in the Tapatalk Italian Citizenship forum. There is a very active thread there that deals specifically with those applying at the London Consulate.

[mmogno]

You may want to post in the Tapatalk Italian Citizenship forum. There is a very active thread there that deals specifically with those applying at the London Consulate.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italian ... s1090.html


https://www.facebook.com/ControilConsolatoItaliano/

[dannyjosa]

Thanks very much! My ancestor moved from Italy to "abroad" (Guyana) and then to Britain. I made it very clear to the officer that I had evidence that he never was naturalised in Guyana (I have an apostilled document to confirm it), and also made it clear that the ancestor naturalised in Britain in 1916. My documents were fine with regards to this question, but she didn't want to discuss it at all.

She was adamant that because my Italian ancestor's children were born outside Italy before 1912 (regardless of the fact that their Italian father didn't naturalise until 1916) there is no way that the children could have held or transmitted citizenship. She said that a child born outside Italy before 1912 would acquire citizenship abroad through birth and thereby lose the chance to gain Italian citizenship, she quoted the civil code etc, but having read and researched it intently I am unsure which tree she is barking up... From everything I have ever read, I think this interpretation is completely wrong. When I asked her on what basis she was making this novel interpretation she said 'I am the State, this is not an interpretation, this is the law....'


Do you think I should make a complaint? Any idea how? She also claimed to be the supervisor of this whole process, her initial are GB in case anyone else knows about this person.

She certainly had eccentric views..Thanks for those links!

[mler]

That is absolutely absurd. Almost everyone obtaining citizenship through ancestry obtained their second citizenship jus soli. That, in fact, was the only way to obtain a second citizenship and retain Italian citizenship.

Yes,, you should proceed further at the consulate. Do post at Tapatalk. The London group is quite active and may be able guide you to an appropriate contact.

[bbivona]

I have Sicilian-born great grandparents who emigrated to the US. My grandfather was born in the US in 1908 and my citizenship has to go through him. If I am understanding you correctly, the clerk is saying that he wouldn't have had Italian citizenship as a pre-1912 birth abroad. Yet all my paperwork sailed through and my citizenship was recognized without a single question about the validity of his Italian citizenship. (Houston, Texas consulate)

[dannyjosa]

Yes exactly. I suspect the bureaucrat was just a strange person. A lawyer has told me that I cannot go through the courts as this bureaucrat refused to give me any evidence of rejection. So I need to find a way to get rejected, I guess it was a clever bureaucrat doing her best to prevent another citizenship case..

[mler]

The 1948 lawyers who handle court cases will easily recognize that you have a viable consulate case, and will not take your case for that reason. I don’t think a rejection by a consulate employee who misinterpreted Italian citizenship law, would be sufficient. I strongly suggest that your best option is to contact the consulate and make a formal complaint about an employee who has been designated to apply the law and clearly has no understanding of that law.

[dannyjosa]

I have lodged a complaint, but it seems like they neither wish to acknowledge it nor take any steps to solve the problem. Just asking me to rebook through their impossible system...potentially setting me back 12+months..

Sadly, a lawyer tells me that I cannot go through the courts if I am eligible through the Consular route. The officer refused to give me any document to confirm the rejection, so I need to go back and try again and either get accepted or get a paper to say it is rejected. How absurd.


My correspondence is below, I'd love any tips people could offer about where to go next...

---- On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 15:56:16 +0000 Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito, Londra <consolato.londra@esteri.it> wrote ----







Dear Mr Xxxx,


 


We acknowledge receipt of your emails. 


 


With reference to your complaint, please note as follows. 


 


Your version of the meeting does not match in any possible way ours. We do not intend to discuss your version, but we humbly stress that we never received any complaints such as yours before on the performance of the staff  of our citizenship office. Additionally, it would be highly unusual for one of our staff to express such opinions. I assure you that this has never occurred before. 


 


If you are convinced that you have the right to apply for Italian citizenship by descent, you can book, as suggested, another appointment but you have to submit all the documents required. Failing to do so, your application cannot be accepted.


 


Best regards.


 


 


Consolato Generale d'Italia in Londra


HARP HOUSE


83/86 Farringdon Street


London EC4A 4BL


www.conslondra.esteri.it




 


 


Da: xxxxx
Inviato: venerdì 18 dicembre 2020 00:27
A: consolato.londra@esteri.it
Oggetto: Official Complaint - irregular interpretation of the law during citizenship meeting

 


Dear Consular Team,


 


I would like to lodge an official complaint about my experience yesterday during an ancestry immigration appointment (11am 17th December 2020.) Please could you take my complaint forwards and inform me about your complaints procedure. I waited a very long time for this appointment and would appreciate the opportunity to meet with a different officer in the close future. Please find my complaint below.


 


Irregular interpretation of the law:


The officer that discussed my case refused to accept my papers because she held an unprecedented interpretation of Italy’s laws. My case is simple: my Italian ancestor moved to Guyana and had children there, this ancestor didn’t naturalise until 1916, so his children retained the right to Italian citizenship because they were already over 21 when he finally naturalised. I explained this in detail to the officer, however she insisted that any child born abroad loses the right to naturalise, regardless of whether or not the parent naturalised. This is incorrect, but she was absolutely adamant that I was wrong. I discussed it at length with her and asked what the basis was for her novel and unprecedented interpretation of the law, she responded saying “I am the State”, “this is not an interpretation.” The officer also displayed various other troubling attitudes, among which include:


 


2. Unacceptable comments, a few of which are quoted below:


-"The 1948 law permitting women to transmit citizenship is a disgrace", I believe officers shouldn’t express opinions that run counter to the laws of the country they represent, in this case she was undermining Italy’s constitution and espousing views that opposed maternal rights to transmit citizenship.
-"Italy is crazy to allow foreigners with historic links to Italy to claim citizenship", officers should not express emotive and impassioned views, particularly of a xenophobic nature.
-"You can win citizenship if you go through a tribunal, they are a fiasco and allow Italian law to be broken", I was uncomfortable to hear an officer of the Consulate describing the Italian legal system as broken.

3. Attitude


She also tried to conduct the interview in Italian and told me not to seek citizenship for Italy if I am not yet fluent in Italian (incidentally, I am an Oxford graduated linguist, a lready fluent in Mandarin and Spanish, and learning Italian..) When I politely asked her not to conduct this meeting in Italian, she became irritated. There is no requirement that I should conduct it in Italian however, and I also made polite attempts at conversation in Italian.


 


This officer refused to accept payment or lodge my application, she took copies of my documents but didn’t give any form of receipt, so I have no evidence the meeting took place. So, I’d like to urgently have my complaint put forward while your records are extant.


 


Myself and legal experts that have assisted my case and various other experts on this topic are surprised by the strangeness of this experience, if you could invite me for another meeting with a different officer then I’d be very grateful.


 


Thanks very much,


 


Best wishes,


 

xxxxx

[mler]

It appears they do not wish to acknowledge the issue. First, schedule another appointment. That is your backup so do it as soon as possible.

You may also try to contact the consulate again advising them that you have scheduled another appointment as a backup but that you request that they offer an expedited alternative since at the meeting with ...... on ...... your completed document file was not reviewed.

Emphasize that you have all the necessary documents to confirm the legitimacy of your claim and that you presented them at the first meeting.

I don’t know where you can go from there, but again I suggest that you contact someone who applied in London (see the Tapatalk thread) who may be able to provide you with the name of a specific person who can help.

[dannyjosa]

thanks, I'll try this! Crazy how corrupt they are!

[mmogno]

Report your issue to "Contro i disservizi del Consolato Italiano a Londra"
https://www.facebook.com/ControilConsolatoItaliano/
Maybe someone has some good suggestions to give you.

[mmogno]

Check
https://www.facebook.com/disservizirecl ... e_internal
https://www.esteri.it/mae/it/servizi/sportello_info
https://www.esteri.it/mae/it/servizi/sp ... ainfo.html

[dannyjosa]

I attended today, met the same person as last time, but this time all processed smoothly!! No idea why last time I received such a strange intepretation but anyway. I suggest people never give up if faced with these issues.

[qualdom]

congratulations...I am happy to hear that your persistence paid dividends.